Filed under: Etc., EV/Plug-in, Hybrid, USA
Lithium ion battery easily achieves 180,000 miles in testing
While it's true that we have posted before about extraordinary performances turned in by the batteries of Altairnano before, in light of the recent claim by AFS Trinity that lithium ion batteries in a plug-in hybrid could only achieve 25,000 miles (unless the energy was buffered by ultracapacititors as it is in the AFS design), we thought you might particularly enjoy hearing about a recent test conducted by other entities. The utility company Southern California Edison (SCE) has been putting a battery from Johnson Controls-Saft through its paces for some two and a half years now and have just released some of their results thus far. Simulating the conditions that might be experienced within a light commercial van, the utility has so far racked up 180,000 miles on the pack with minimal deterioration. The results were positive enough for the Department of Energy (DOE) to throw down for a full size battery to test whether it would be suitable for a passenger car. Since it was stated in AFS Trinity's press release that CEO Edward Furia was unaware of the existence of such a durable lithium ion battery, we respectfully suggest he call up SCE for confirmation.
[Source: Canadian Driver]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
TX CHL Instructor 11:54AM (11/21/2008)
Great! Now all we need is some way to drastically reduce the price. Or maybe get some form of standardization that would allow leasing of battery packs.
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TX CHL Instructor 1:41PM (11/21/2008)
Angel, you need to be a LOT more skeptical of what you read on the internet. The links you provided point to a site that sounds to me like yet another perpetual motion machine. If you don't understand that problem, you need to study up on the laws of Thermodynamics.
Chris M 2:40PM (11/21/2008)
Angel, are you going to spam every single page in this site?
I've checked out your off-topic website, and found-
They've rediscovered the "self-recharging battery operated motor" scam! Folks, this is an old scam that's been done to death, it relys on the scientific illiteracy and wishful thinking of the marks, and that few people realize just how much energy batteries really store, and how efficient electric motors are especially when running without any load.
Throw in a load of bafflegab and a few misleading measurements, and the suckers are hooked!
Notice that the very last line was a phone number for potential investors to call...
ziv 12:01PM (11/21/2008)
This is good news but given the way the NiMh batteries are holding up in the older Prii, maybe not too surprising. LiIon battery packs will have air conditioning to prevent battery degradation due to overheating, depth of discharge of just 50% in many cases, and will probably last more than 10 years before they start to lose more than 10% of their initial range. Even if your 40 mile range Volt is only delivering 30 miles aer by 2022, you will probably be able to sell the less efficient battery pack for a decent amount to someone who wants backup power for their home. With most of the PHEV's starting to go into production in 2010, I imagine the price of gasoline will be a lot higher by then and the current lack of 'pain at the pump' will be a thing of the past.
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Richard 12:13PM (11/21/2008)
Why would anyone buy a 10 year old battery pack for a lot of money, when they could buy a new one for a little more with a warranty? The only way to sell old things, besides, antiques, is for rock bottom bargain prices. It's the way things are. The real solution, would be to make the batteries refurbish able, by replacing components instead of the whole thing. Lead acid batteries are refurbished all the time, by replacing bad cells, not the whole battery. Just makes a whole lot of cents!
nixon 12:37PM (11/21/2008)
Over at GM-Volt.com they talked to a GM engineer about the 40 mile range. The basic message was that the Volt would go 40 miles on battery power regardless of the age of the battery, or whether it was being driven on the highway or in the city. GM was a bit elusive with the details, but it sounds like they are not going to fix the percent of discharge of the battery pack for each cycle, and fix the number of miles per discharge cycle instead.
There are basically 3 variables for how far you can drive in battery-only mode before the engine kicks on.
1) Number of miles driven
2) How much the battery discharges per mile
3) What percentage the battery discharges before the engine kicks in.
If you fix the percentage of discharge to exactly 50% before the engine comes on, than the number of miles driven before the engine comes on becomes a function of how much the battery discharges per mile.
On the other hand, if GM fiddles with the discharge rate, and the percentage of discharge per cycle, they can fix the electric-only range at 40. The volt could cut power to lower battery discharge rates if the driver gets too far out of hand. The volt could also allow the battery to discharge farther in order to get to 40 miles.
In that case, the largest limiting factor for 40 miles of all-electric range isn't the physical limitations of the battery, it's the software. So it is quite possible that one of these batteries could deteriorate 10, 20, even 30% over 20 years and still deliver 40 miles of all-electric range.
ziv 2:11PM (11/21/2008)
Richard, if the 16kWh battery pack for the Volt costs about $600 per kWh in 2010, and its replacement/upgrade in 2022 costs about $400 per kWh, I will be buying a 20 kWh for about $8,000. The battery I want to sell will still have 9-10 kWh of useable storage left, so I can sell it to a recycling company for $400 to $500, or I can sell it to someone who wants a backup battery for their home in the case of power outages, or to a person that owns a cabin and wants better energy options than a wind generator or photo voltaic cells alone. If a new battery pack is selling for $400 per kWh, a reliable, albeit used pack would probably sell for $200kWh, or $1500-$1600, which wouldn't be bad.
Nixon, I didn't see the interview you mention, the GM engineers that I have read about recently all were talking about 40 mile AER using the newer city cycle, and were quiet about whether it was EOL or not. It sounds like it should be, but they are playing it close to the vest til they get more info from their testing, I would guess. And it did sound like they were going to be going a lot deeper than 50% to get 40 mile AER at EOL.
Nixon 12:04PM (11/21/2008)
Sounds to me like AFS Trinity's CEO Edward Furia lacks the knowledge of how to make a Lithium battery pack last more than 25,000 miles by controlling the charge/discharge through software. So they've used capacitors to do the same job that the complex charge/discharge software does.
That's not necessarily a bad solution. It might be a perfectly good simple hardware solution to a complex software problem. But it doesn't mean that AFS's solution is the only solution like they claim.
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smog 12:16PM (11/21/2008)
they racked more miles on nimh on real world electric suv like the toyota rav4 and the insight
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Tim 12:24PM (11/21/2008)
Great news, thanks!!!
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Brn 3:31PM (11/21/2008)
Lasting 180K miles over a few months is a lot different than lasting 180K miles over 15 years. In addition, where I live, it gets pretty darned cold in the winter. How does that affect the battery efficiency and longevity?
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jake 6:51PM (11/21/2008)
The cold in general only has temporary impact on battery capacity. In cold weather the battery will hold less charge but it is not a long term effect, meaning once you are out of the cold weather it will return to normal.
Hot weather, on the other hand, will contribute to long term deterioration of the battery.
You are right that "180K miles over a few months is a lot different than lasting 180K miles over 15 years".
This is the difference between cycle life and calender life. This test proves the cycle life is good. The argument with AFS is basically over cycle life since they claim 25,000 miles for batteries in plug-in hybrids.
A calender life test will require testing the battery until that period ends or extrapolating existing data. Altairnano claims a long calendar life of 20+ years if I remember correctly. You can take that as a good estimate or wait until testing is done 20 years later.
Brn 3:32PM (11/22/2008)
It gets hot here too. :)
Snowdog 8:43PM (11/21/2008)
Things to Consider:
Altair Nano batteries are not run of the mill Lithium. They are exceptional. Standard lithiums are lucky to make 1000 charging cycles. Standard lithiums are 50% dead after 5 year even if you don't use them. They are also exceptionally expensive at around $2000/KWh.
Anyone know anything about the the LG Chem batteries that GM is reported to be using?
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