AutoblogGreen

1. What makes you say that cold weather issues have been solved? Here in Texas, we had problems in February with palm oil biodiesel. The problems are still there from what I've seen, and I'd love to hear differently.

Posted at 12:58PM on May 6th 2008 by jason burroughs

2. I drove several different diesels over the course of a very cold winter here in Michigan and all performed flawlessly even when parked outside overnight. Unfortunately the same could not be said for the hybrids I tried in similar conditions. When temps dipped below 40 degrees, the NiMH batteries became dead weight.

Posted at 1:07PM on May 6th 2008 by Sam Abuelsamid

3. Time to go test drive one....

Unfortunately my fears about low supplies seem to be confirmed. That means only about 7500 Sportwagons per year! (= only 12.5 per state per month). Ouch.
Of course they'll probably make more sedans than that, so the numbers aren't that bad, but still, it looks like getting one for MSRP will be tough.

Posted at 1:08PM on May 6th 2008 by Karkus

4. I just called my dealer in Austin, TX. They said they are going to get 2 in a month or so, but they are for them to test, not to sell. My name is on a list to be called. They expect delivery of actual vehicles to sell in September.

Posted at 1:13PM on May 6th 2008 by jason burroughs

5. The post above seems to imply that NiMH batteries have problems below 40 degrees. That is FALSE. Yes, the efficiency of the hybrid system drops off when it's cold (especially on short trip) because extra gasoline is to be used to warm everything up (just like in a regular car), but the batteries work fine. The battery power might be a little restricted at first, but they warm up by themselves to normal temps fairly quickly.

Maybe you can say that they are dead weight (all 100 lbs of them) in the sense that the car gets low mpgs on SHORT trips when it's cold, but the batteries themselves still work fine. Many people have reported that the Prius has no problems even when it's well below 0 F.
Also, once the car is warmed up, getting 50 MPG in subfreezing temps is common for me on long, moderate speed winter trips.

Posted at 1:22PM on May 6th 2008 by Karkus

6. Karkus, my experience with two different Toyota hybrids and the Chevy Tahoe (all with batteries closer to 300lbs than 100) was that even trips of up to 20 miles were often not sufficient to get the hybrid system to even auto-stop much less drive in EV mode when temperatures were cold. If all heaters and accessories are turned off and the engine still doesn't shut down when the vehicle is stopped, that tells me the hybrid system is ineffective in these conditions. Regardless of whether the battery is the issue (which corresponds to what I've heard from automaker engineers) or something else in the system, it doesn't matter. The system still doesn't help.

Posted at 1:34PM on May 6th 2008 by Sam Abuelsamid

7. Don't believe the nonsense about warm-up and electric-only. Both will happen on your daily drive, even in Minnesota in January. I've done it for 7 years now and have plenty of photos to prove the battery still works fine, even at -13F.

Posted at 2:21PM on May 6th 2008 by john1701a

8. I don't know about the Toyota, but my Honda hybrid specifically said in its manual, that below a certain temperature (50 degrees F?), the system will *DISABLE* the start/stop.

I believe one of the reasons is that the Engine itself will get cold quickly, thus the engine will not be allowed to be disabled. Also, the catalytic converter will not be effective if it's cold. Hybrids are bound by the emission label, too.

Posted at 4:40PM on May 6th 2008 by Charles S

9. And the suckers line up one by one to be reamed.

Posted at 4:51PM on May 6th 2008 by armmat

10. I believe that the point Sam originally made was that modern diesels start up (and run) fine in cold temps. Good point. I'm glad to hear it, and it's good to dispel that outdated diesel problem.

But then he said that hybrids (specifically the batteries) aren't good at low temps. Since he was addressing the start up issues of diesels in cold temps, this seems to imply that maybe there are problems with hybrids starting at low temps. This is not true. Or it could imply that hybrid cars are somehow prone to breaking down in low temps. Not true.

It seems he was talking about startup issues with diesel, and then jumping to efficiency issues with hybrids at cold temps (which are mostly only relevant on short trips). Why even throw that in there? It's not relevant to the issue of cold starting in diesels.

But since you got us sidetracked...
Yes, cold temps and heavy heater+defrost use will decrease the ability to auto-stop. This part of the hybrid system is degraded. As a chemist, I am also well aware that there are some limitation placed on how much power the battery can deliver at low temps, but those limitations really only matter if you're drag racing or driving up Mt Evans, and as the battery warms up, these limitations go away.

But, even IF the engine always idled (like in a regular car) AND IF the battery could only charge/discharge at half the rate, hybrid systems still get better mpg than than an identical gasoline car with the same power.
Why?
1) Hybrids can use smaller ICE since the electric motor makes up for it when needed
2) The hybrid's ICE can operate in the more efficient atkinson cycle
3) the electric motor allows the ICE to run at more constant RPMs
4) Regenerative braking.

But why I am having to explain this here. You guys already know this.
Also, every single car is less efficient at low temps than at moderate temps. People often seem to compare the MPG of a hybrid in cold city driving to what their car gets normally when it's nice out, not realizing that all cars lose a few mpgs in the winter.


Now, back to the nice new TDIs. I hope they sell well and that VW dealers don't screw the customers too much (as some Toyota dealers did). It's good to finally get some high MPG options back (and I hope we get reasonable priced EVs, fuel cell, etc. vehicles soon too. We need ALL of those technologies. There is NO correct answer.

Posted at 5:12PM on May 6th 2008 by Karkus

11. If i bought a house instead of a condo "slaps self in face" I would rock on of these and just blend in 50-75% BD in the summer and maybe 10% in the winter.

Posted at 5:51PM on May 6th 2008 by stevefazek

12. Hopefully they're taking one of those off the truck and using it to do some EPA MPG testing so we can get some real numbers and put all that MPG speculation to rest.

Posted at 6:21PM on May 6th 2008 by Karkus

13. I never meant to imply there was a problem with starting any hybrids in cold weather. They always started up with out issue. The problem was strictly with the hybrid functionality in those conditions. In cold weather, I've found diesels to be much more consistent in performance and fuel efficiency than hybrids.

Posted at 6:22PM on May 6th 2008 by Sam Abuelsamid

14. Sorry i wont be buying one . Those things are hideous besides the fact that i live in a family of 4 in which we like to sit comfortably

Posted at 6:24PM on May 6th 2008 by Kevin Nugent

15. @john1701a -- You need to provide more information, such as the length of your commute and what you consider to be 'warmed up'. In areas such as Buffalo, there is no such thing as a 'warmed up' car if you're only driving 15 miles or so.

Posted at 9:40PM on May 6th 2008 by cj

16. I'll certainly be test-driving one when I can.

Posted at 6:58AM on May 7th 2008 by FThorn

17. I will test drive one when I can. I am curious about road noise, last time I drove a Jetta I thought I was going to be deaf.

Posted at 7:26AM on May 7th 2008 by Chris

18. CJ- my Toy warms up just fine in the first 3 miles- in ANY temps, right down to -30F.
Too bad VW wont offer the Wagon with 4Motion. The Subie diesel is due in 2 years, but who wants to wait that long.

Posted at 8:36AM on May 7th 2008 by Guenther

19. With the price premium for diesel over 87 octane, isn't the MPG boost pretty much wiped out? Especially when you factor in the higher initial purchase price?

Posted at 9:25AM on May 7th 2008 by Lionsfan54

20. That depends how much higher the mileage is. If a gas Jetta gets 30mpg (just pulling a number) and the TDI gets 45, then I'd say it's definitely worth it. The extra cost, assuming it's not TOO exorbitant, will pay for itself with the MUCH longer vehicle life (diesels are usually good for a couple of hundred thousand miles).

Posted at 10:05AM on May 7th 2008 by mroverlord