AutoblogGreen

"Alternatively, one could forego a car altogether and take public transport and invest the difference."

I love how its assumed everyone has access to public transportation. I'd really love to see some numbers to back up that comment. I'd guess less than 25% of the American public have access to "public transportation." I guess one could IF it was an option and thats a big IF for most people.

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Well the "most effective way to cut energy consumption and expenses" will always be, for me, the most streamlined and light car possible.

Having a "normal" car with hybrid drive is just about adding some efficiency to something that is not.

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I always enjoy reading about the cost perspective of buying/operating cars like the Prius. I think the one of the largest barriers to having consumers adopt greener technology is cost. As more economical hybrids/high MPG cars are introduced, you'll see a lot more of them on the road. Smart Cars are a step in that direction, though I think they should be cheaper than what they are. Other alternatives like the Honda Clarity (http://www.hondaclarity.org) are still much too expensive to implement.

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I must be missing something. I thought the point was to reduce to consumption of fossil fuels and all their byproduct, not save money. There are a lot of ways to save money, not so many to avoid the use of fossil fuels.

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Cars are now less about stroking your ego and more about the intended service. This trend will accelerate as costs increase due to the feds hyperinflation of the US Dollar to pay for Congresses uncontrolled war and social(ist) "entitlement" spending. The more the Democratic-Socialists & NeoCon empire builders borrow from the Fed, the more things will cost all of us and the less luxury spending we can do. This is what’s REALLY causing the depression in the global economy.

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Money is one of the best ways to change behavior

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Another alternative for an infrequent driver: car share programs.

I know concepts like ZipCar probably won't be a mainstream method of transportation for most, but it is a low-cost alternative for places that does not have access to mass-transit system. For subdivisions like senior-living communities or on-campus housing, car share program can save money for both the local municipality and local citizens.

Consumers will not need to worry non-fuel costs of owning a car (insurance, asset depreciation costs, maintenance); municipalities do not have to buy buses, hire a driver, or service routes that are not profitable. It's no free lunch, but this model can work for those who realize they only need a car for occasional use.

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Oh, as a follow-up. The reason why car share programs can save fuel is this: with fewer cars than people, it's likely that the community can plan ahead and share the ride for some common events: plan ahead for grocery shopping, or take the same car to go to an out-of-town concert, etc. Owning personal transportation is a valued convenience, but being organize and plan ahead has its rewards, too.

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You mean that I can save money by not buying a $20,000 car if I can tolerate limiting myself to bus routes?

You mean if I seldom drive I might not want to spend an additional $10,000 on a too-fancy car?

Wow, thank God there are hardworking journalists unlocking these inscrutable mysteries for us rubes. Slow news day I guess

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One of the best ways to cut your personal energy costs would be to steal a car, but that doesn't mean you should do that.

The investment part of this article strikes me as particularly thoughtless. Oil is causing us a lot of problems. so why not invest in some oil companies? Similarly, the directors of one of the mutual funds I have money in was recently asked to stop investing in companies that inadvertently support genocide, and they said they didn't want to do that, they have to focus on money and not improving life on Earth.

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My solution was to buy a 15 year old Corolla wagon. Never less than 30mpg and if going on a trip it pushes 40mpg. Certainly not Prius levels, but consider it was $1200, and I can fit almost anything in it....
I took a trip a few months ago. 4 people, 2 bicycles, an extra engine I was selling, and camping equipment and it got 40mpg doing 80 from SLC to Las Vegas and back, I don't think it gets much cheaper than that.

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Truth is that the type of driving also needs to be taken into account. A Jetta TDI kicks butt on Prius on highway mileage. Hybrids shine on city driving.

But for anyone who wants to reduce their carbon footprint, the best way is still to buy a used econobox. A used Cobalt, for example, with 40,000 miles can be purchased for about the cost of the Prius' first two years of gas and the sales tax on a new Prius. The 20k saved can but put to use in other ways, including buying all the rest of your future cars until you die. However, I still thank the rich and those who don't mind bearing the burden of debt for continuing to put their used cars on the market so that they can get a Prius. Put your Priuses on the market someday and I might be willing to purchase it if I have 3-6K for the batteries that will die around 100,000 miles (my last two Ford Escorts and my Civic got around 300,000 before I had to put them out of their misery).

In the meantime, everyone needs to google "ecomodder" and "hypermiling" and learn how they can get the EPA estimates for the Prius on ANY econobox. Those of us who have are already doing better mpg than a Prius and are going to retire early. It's up to you.

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Good point in the article. This is exactly why I bought a Scion xA in 2006, instead of a Prius. I drive only about 3,000 miles per year, and with (very) mild hypermilling I get about 40MPG. The extra $8,000 (minimum) to buy a Prius would have resulted in a ridiculously long payback period.

To some of the other readers here: Remember that the people who choose a car based on oil consumption or CO2 emissions are a vanishingly small minority of the general public. The rest make decisions based on economics, measured in dollars. That's why on my own site or in public presentations I so often stress that you can Do The Right Thing by conserving oil or natural gas, and also save yourself some money immediately. I don't care which one motivates them, as long as they get off their butts and take action.

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Luke...
This is not the place where you can get away with spewing your hybrid myths.
1) there is absolutely NO evidence that batteries die at 100000 miles - besides, batteries are warrantied to 150000 in CARB states, and there are Prius taxis that have gone over 250000 with no problems.
2) The highway and city MPG for hybrids are very similar, both when looking at EPA ratings and my own data. I have carefully tracked MPG over 700000 miles on my Prius, and city vs highway makes very little difference. Whether I cruise around the suburbs or drive I-70 over the mountain, getting 50+ is no problem. The main factor is temperature. MPG in the Colorado winter is in the high 40, and in the summer it's in the 50s. The second factor is trip length. Short trips + cold weather = MPG of a regular car.
The only kind of highway driving where the Jetta TDI MPG may be better than a Prius is going 80+ MPH, when the Prius MPG drops into the low 40s. Most people live in urban areas and commute on urban highway most of the time, and for that kind of ~65MPH highway driving, the Prius gets around 50 mpg. But even if the TDI gets a few MPGs more in some conditions, diesel costs more, so there go your savings. Plus, VWs are notorious for expensive repairs.

Havings said all that...I'm excited that the cleaner TDI Jetta will arrive this fall, and I hope they make lots to meet the demand here. Looks like a nice car with good MPGs and as long as they've improved the reliability, it should be a hit. We need all kinds of high MPG car choices, and I'm sure the Jetta will be a better option than the Prius for some people and for some kinds of driving (even if it's more expensive).

As for the original article - sure, a Prius won't be the most economical for all people for all conditions. Nobody ever said it was.
But if you "need" a midsize car, the Prius has been calculated by Intellichoice and others to be the lowest cost of ownership car (for several years in a row)
http://www.intellichoice.com/best_values/bovy/year/2008/bovy_category/Midsize%20under%2021000

BUT...most people buy cars based on what they think they need (based on peers, advertisements, etc.) and what kind of image they want to portray. Buying the cheapest car possible only applies to a few percent of the population.

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Seems to me the message here is to complete a needs assessment of your transportation requirements.
For example, we live in a rural area and are retired so our needs are far less than a commuter living 30 miles from work or someone living in a city with mass transit nearby.

Also, as many know, but some don't, one should understand that mild hybrids, like the Prius are ICE driven with battery electric augmentation, intelligent engine stop and start and regeneration. The electric augmentation is brought into play whenever the load on the car is at a high level, i.e., during acceleration from a stop, running at fast speeds, etc.; the rest of the time only the ICE is used.

If your needs assessment shows you are a commuter in high volume traffic, then perhaps all you need, until battery cars come along, is a small high mileage ICE with "stop and start."

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Karkus, sorry if I caused you to blow a gasket. When I commented, I was speaking of the EPA’s objective and empirical tests upon which they based their estimates, not you anecdotal, personal experience. I can’t possibly do that. If you like, google “Prius actual mileage” and read what people say they are getting, or write a scathing letter to the EPA. Heck, I know one guy who gets nearly 80 mpg in a 95 Civic and another who gets nearly 70 mpg in a Saturn S1. Should to silence anyone who says those cars get different mileage? You can’t be serious.

In addition, what difference does it make if the batteries go 100k or 150k? The fact is that they will have to be replaced several times in the life of the car. And don’t tell me that the vast majority of Prius owners are suddenly going to start using their car 300+k. No, they are going to go right on buying new cars every couple of years, just like they did before. The carbon footprint is huge, but it feels better because it's done in the name of Mother Earth. Heck, even Paris Hilton has one.

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Luke- one of your original points was that many econoboxes can be hypermiled to get Prius EPA MPGs. That's a good point, and I agree. A lot of fuel could be saved if people did that, and I fully support people who do that.
However, in the process you felt the need to put down the Prius. You failed to mention that the Prius can also be hypermiled (100+ MPG tanks have been documented in Japan and in the US). And you also felt the need to propagate hybrid myths about battery replacements every 100000 miles, and about poor highway fuel econmony vs the Jetta.
Those are simply not true.
The highway MPG for a 2006 Jetta was rated at 42 (and is now estimated at 38 with the new ratings). The Prius is rated higher.
Sure, the EPA tests aren't perfect, but they are way better than people with anecdotal evidence about how they got this high MPG this once. That's why we have the EPA tests. At least they test all cars under the same conditions.

Also, manufacturing a car represents only small part of the energy footprint of a car over its lifetime, even for a hybrid. And used car buyers effectively share in the footprint of any car that is manufactured.
It doesn't really matter if 2 people buy new cars and run them 20 years till they die, OR if one always buys a new car and sells it to the other after 10 years. The overall carbon footprint is exactly the same.

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Karkus, for some unknown reason you are unable to understand that my original post had to do with 1) the environmental impact of a car and 2) the financial impact of the car. I made no comparison whatsoever about NEW cars. In fact, I compared a NEW Prius to a USED car on both the environmental level and the financial level.

Again, for the price of a Prius anyone can buy a lifetime supply of used cars (assuming they will drive 40 more years), plus they can drive those used but relatively new cars more efficiently than they probably imagined. You, however, in your blind rage over anyone daring to criticize the icon of “greenness” came to the defense of the Prius and put words in my mouth. The truth is that the vast majority of people buying Priuses are just like anyone else and will buy another car in a few years, when all that money could have been saved and they could retire that much earlier, or spend the money on a worthwhile cause. Did I not say that clearly enough for you?

Now, regarding the environmental impact of buying an efficient used car or making a brand new Prius, which has the most environmental impact? Of course there is less environmental impact by driving a car that gets 10 miles less per gallon than there is by making a brand new car (who disputes that?), not to mention the fact that time and again there are diesel cars that are demonstrably more efficient under certain conditions (here’s just one example, but ask and I’ll give you 12 more other models as examples – which are much cheaper: http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/23/bmw-520d-beats-prius-in-gas-mileage/).

There is simply too much blind consumerism going on, and now it’s being done in a way that makes people feel good by being “green” when in fact they are so far from it that it’s not funny.

Finally, I’m not some green wacko that thinks that everyone necessarily should drive a car that looks like a piece of crap at 300k miles. Personally, I do drive cars when they look like that, but I understand that for professional reasons some people can’t be seen in a car like that because it will damage their career. Hopefully, however, even those who wouldn’t be seen in such a car today will eventually change their perceptions, just like Hollywood camera chasers are finally happy to drive the econobox Pruis to gain our attention. They wouldn't have been seen in an economy car 15 years ago. It’s gone so far that someone like Paris Hilton claims she bought the first one, just to have the claim to fame. Lemmings.

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