AutoblogGreen

"Small cars reign over French car market". Haven't they always?

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Man I do wish I lived in France...not just for the cars...but for so many other things.

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armmat, I wish you did too. I'll donate the first $5 to get you a one way ticket. Considering the only decent French car was the Bugatti and that was designed by an Italian, the French car designers are notable only for their incredible ability to design UGLY vehicles. The French are arrogant and but for the grace of God and the USA they'd be speaking German.

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Whopper: And the French Resistance, which was dying by the tens of thousands trying to fight German tanks with obsolete weaponry while we sat on our rears, trying to sit out Germany's march Europe, until Japan forced us into the war. Whoops, we're supposed to forget about that and just focus on the fact that we *eventually* stepped in to help the French, right?

It all reminds me how much everyone made fun of the French for opposing the Iraq War, for their questioning whether there were WMDs, and for talking about how the war would do more harm then good -- a view that most Americans now accept. And yet we continue to make fun of them. Despite the fact that they were right.

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http://www.transportenvironment.org/docs/Publications/2007/2007-11_car_company_co2_report.pdf

ACEA car manufacturers have been whining and making a lot of tantrums about CO2, but if you look at how long it has taken the French and Italian manufacturers to adjust, I'd say it's already time to update the CO2 tax/rebate systems. Peugeot-Citroen in the above European report narrowly beat Fiat to the best CO2 average in Europe, with all German manufacturers (VW included) lagging in last place and a t a considerable distance. But now models like the Citroen C5 or Fiat Bravo have come out, already larger than anyone really needs, with 149 and 119 g CO2/km.

The important thing to note here isn't just the low CO2 footprint for larger cars now, but the fact that these models are among the most affordable on the market. These aren't Bluemotion models which cost some 9000 euros more than their competition or an A4 which costs some 7000 euros more than the C5.
If you avoid the German models you end up with the combination of best-in-class (for car segment and weight) emissions AND extremely competitive price.

France and Spain are today leading the way in Europe with their CO2 tax-rebate systems, and their sales stats tell the story very well. The UK is lagging considerably and though the new announced CO2 brackets are an improvement, it will be some time before the measures go into effect. In Italy they do have the rebates in place, but still lack any real penalties for the tractors.....

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Well with the way gas prices are i don't expect anything less.

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@KarenRei: "And the French Resistance, which was dying by the tens of thousands trying to fight German tanks with obsolete weaponry while we sat on our rears"

I want some of what you're smoking. Perhaps you are confusing Polish and Yugoslav resistance with the French? Please kindly read something about the subject before you say something this nonsensical.

Here are a few words for you to look up in an encyclopedia:

* Pétain
* Révolution nationale
* Surrender

Now, can we kindly go back to cars? I would love to have some of the French cars available in the US. The new Peugot 107 & 207 are very pretty. Even the more practical vehicles - call them mini-suvs if you wish - are small and fuel efficient, unlike the monstrocities that plague our highways.

Perhaps we should adopt the CO2 emission scheme as a basis for carpool decals? I think it's insane to see everyday Suburbans and Expeditions with mommy and a baby rolling down carpool lanes because they are saving the planet by having two people inside.

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@hwyhobo
you can't be serious about the Suburbans in carpool lanes because Mom and baby are the occupants.... you're trying to be funny, right? i know things in the US work differently, but surely that isn't really happening?

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Just for the record - Peugeot 107 and Citroen C1 aren't quite French. These are designed by Toyota and made on TPCA plant in Czech Republic (http://www.tpca.cz/en/)

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Was that self satire, Whopper? Pretty good, that! Its now time to stand up straight, salute the flag, and recite the Pledge of Allegience! Like a good American! Yeah, those French are sure arrogant alright! LOL!

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@Karl-Uwe: I wish I was joking, my friend. Here carpool lanes are regulated on a county-by-county basis, and that's how most counties in California do it. In Silicon Valley I spent a long time in commute every day sitting stuck in traffic jams watching big SUVs roll by in carpool lanes.

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geeeeeeeeee-pers....

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Why do Americans always keep harking back to the war? Without the French they might never have gained independence - or is that going back too far?
France has produced some of the most innovative cars in history.
People who actually know something about cars know that!

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"France has produced some of the most innovative cars in history.
People who actually know something about cars know that!"
How about a list buddy! Innovative French cars were last seen back in the 1930's. Citroen's are the ugliest conveyances on the planet and the hydraulic suspension was a nightmare. Peugeot's look like Fiats and are as dependable as Lucas Electrics (the Prince of Darkness). The Delahaye models were pieces of art but, again, that's pre-WWII. And then there is Renault, I guess. I remember the Dauphine because I had to install helicoils in the aluminum head on many of them when I was in highschool working at a foreign car dealership (We sold MGs, Healeys and TVRs).

Which French automobile is available in the US Colin? I think I missed them.

And yes, the French helped...232 years ago.

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here's a list then:

-Pininfarina-Bollore vehicle. This is arguably the most innovative vehicle in Europe today, as it is the first EV made in Europe which isn't the size of a tiny box. If you like it's the European Tesla. It's a 50-50 Franco-Italian JV, but the underlying technology (the battery) is French. The Batscap batteries in this case are conventional, but they also may supercapacitors with performances comparable to Altairnano. Batscap are the only company in Europe today with this kind of battery performances (a bit like the Alcatel Saft for satellite batteries)

- There are several innovative Peugeot-Citroens which steal the show away from Fiat (also excellent in terms of emissions) for their low emissions. Spain's most popular car in terms of sales for March 2008 was the Citoren C4, with CO2 as low as 125. There is also a new C5 versions with 149 g CO2/km, which is unbeatable for such a large car as well as for its price.

-It is through innovation that the French, as well as the Italians, topped both of these lists:
http://www.transportenvironment.org/docs/Publications/2007/2007-11_car_company_co2_report.pdf
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/information/how-to-use-the-data-tables.asp#petrol

For example, though the common rail engine first came out in Italy, the French were very quick to follow and today the HDi and dCi common rails have nothing to envy the second generation multijets. Even with petrol engines the Peugeot engine used in the Mini can also be considered quite innovative.

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As far as ugliness is concerned, this is obviously a matter of personal tastes. French cars lead several European cars sales charts by car segment so that, at least statistically, most people in Europe (where French cars ARE sold) would seem to disagree.
A fiend of mine just bought a Peugeot 307 convertible, and thing is just gorgeous! His second choice would have been the Citroen C4, which I also find attractive but is also cost-competitive, has class-beating emissions and is the OVERALL sales leader in Spain (which is mind-boggling considering that this is already a large car by European standards)

It's true that French cars (or Italian cars) are not sold in the US. But is this so surprising? Euro-dollar conversion rates aside, if US tastes tend towards Suburbans, Hummers and the like, while European regulations (except Germany) are leaning DRASTICALLY towards low-emission vehicles, isn't it a huge compliment that French cars are so popular in Europe but would never sell in the US?

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Xavier is spot-on when he remarks that France, Spain and UK all have very effective bonus/malus systems (and I would add excise duties as well) in place now. What I find really unnerving is Italy. If Fiat group vehicles were as low-performance as German vehicles in terms of emissions, I could understand (in part) their stance. That doesn't mean they have such a bad system as the Germans. a 700 euro rebate is in place for petrol vehicles with less than 140g CO2/km (130 for diesel).

What they are lacking in Italy are the PENALTIES in place in France, Spain and UK for tractors....

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@Karl-Uwe: "It's true that French cars (or Italian cars) are not sold in the US. But is this so surprising? Euro-dollar conversion rates aside, if US tastes tend towards Suburbans, Hummers and the like, while European regulations (except Germany) are leaning DRASTICALLY towards low-emission vehicles, isn't it a huge compliment that French cars are so popular in Europe but would never sell in the US?"

French cars used to be sold in the US, but failed primarily for reliability reasons long before the popularity of Suburbans and Hummers.

While the French cars have improved quite dramatically since then (and I share your opinion that many of them are quite pretty and functional), the cost of re-entering a market like the US can be prohibitive, particularly if you do not have readily available models that would not have to be converted to local safety and exhaust requirements. The cost of establishing a dealer network adds to that. The biggest initial expense, however, would likely be a PR campaign needed to reverse that bad old reputation. It wouldn't happen overnight.

Considering how entrenched the Japanese and the German makes are of the foreign brands, it would be an uphill battle for the French to make a dent. Many Europeans don't see it because Japanese makes are nowhere as popular or prevalent in Europe as here. @30% of all new cars sold in the US are Japanese, and they have deep pockets to fight off newcomers.

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I agree about the cost of adapting models to the US market, the problem with dealerships, as well as the Japanese competition. From my point of view German cars and Japanese cars are on opposite sides of the bench. The Japanese, from my point of view, strongly resemble the French and Italians in terms of quality/price ratio and technology (I don't believe that technology=coming up with the latest SUV cup-holders and certainly does not mean being >8 years late on common rail technology). I don't believe the French and Italians stand a chance against the Japanese. But if the Germans are selling cars there, then at least in niche markets (e.g. the Fiat 500 is rumored to being brought over there) pretty much anyone should be able to go there....

I'm still dumbfounded when people talk about failing to meet US emission standards, given the Euro5-euro6 standards in Europe, the various excise duties, congestion charges etc... Just looking around at the size and number of SUVs should be enough to dispel such a myth... then there are all those documentaries showing euro emission levels pitted against Japanese levels, while the US are now trailing even China. Unless we are talking about some future emission levels, but again given the current standards I can't imagine such a sudden jump very likely, especially in the US. The only area in Europe that may resemble the US in terms of emissions standards is Germany, and this is likely to remain the case for some time.... in the last few months Merkel has watered down and pushed back euro emission standards (130 instead of 120 g CO2/km, with an extra FIVE years...). thankfully the national rebate systems have gone ahead unabashedly (Germany excepted)

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Renault is chart leader in terms of being the most unreliable vehicles in the UK. Closely followed by Peugeot and Citroen. Even FIAT and Perodua are much more reliable. As to innovations, is it surprising that PSA can't design their own city car and had to ask Toyota to do so? As to growing small-SUV segment (yes, it is growing in Europe), they went to Mitsu and ask'em to design car for them (Mitusbishi Outlander, also sold as Citroen C-Crosser and Peugeot 4007). The next PSA's small crossover will also be based on Mitsubishi's design.
As to exterior design, I actually quite like French cars, it got a lot of character and recognizable in an instant (the new Citroen C5 being a tribute to Teutonic competition obviously being an exception). Their engines are pretty good too. But assembly quality is appaling.

In short, French cars are the ones to chose with heart, not brain.

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