AutoblogGreen

Thank you for doing this article. Every time someone gets on the Diesel is better and cheaper high horse I have to show them the fact of Diesel cost. The picture frames exactly why Diesel will never be a majority over gas engines in the U.S.A. Not to mention for the added cost you get that lovely knocking sound. its a 2fer screwing.

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I would be willing to look at a new clean diesel and even pay a premium for the engine, BUT if I saw diesel prices like this, I would get the most efficient gas engine instead.

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It is winter. Prices come down in the summer.

and the difference in energy between diesel and 10% ethanol diluted is 15%

and in an economic depression you can make your own diesel [it is still a good idea to cut it with 50% store diesel]. I haven't seen anyone make their own gasoline. [backyard personal refinery?]

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I just paid 7,80$/gal for Diesel...

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#1 and #2. Not that you do not raise good discussion points, but even at the prices posted, the diesel car has a slight cost advantage in simple mpg. Diesel cars also stay on the road longer so they are more efficient in terms of material wasted.

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Right. Part of the reason you can go farther on diesel is that it has more energy content per gallon, roughly 15% more than gasoline. But in the real world, a comparably-powered diesel will go about 40% farther than a gas-powered one.

Diesel engines extract more work per unit of energy and emit less CO2 per mile, largely because they run at significantly higher compression ratios than gas engines do.

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Please - that state obviously has much higher taxes on diesel than on gasoline.

Here premium unleaded and diesel are nearly the same price.

And it is *premium* that is the correct grade to which to compare diesel, since you will not get anywhere near the performance of a modern turbo-diesel without a turbo on your petrol-burner.

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I agree with mk3. My commute is about 120 miles a day. To drive my gasser I would have to fill up twice a week apposed to once every 1.5 weeks with my Jetta TDI (diesel). ~30mpg vs. ~57mpg makes a huge difference.

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Good picture, I've had the shock now I wonder if the Wave Coffee is any good.

btw, why is Diesel more expensive since it is LESS processed and has LESS addititive that gasoline?

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Maybe in my old age I'm getting too cynical, but it seems less than conincidental to me that diesel over gas prices have taken a huge jump in the last few months just as the clean diesel vehicles are arriving. The oil cartel (producers and distributors) manipulates these prices at will. Remember last year or so when oil hit $70 a barrel. Here in CT, the price for regular gas jumped to 3.15-3.25/gal. As oil continued to climb, the price of gas actually declined to below 3.00. It wasn't until it hovered a while at $100/barrel that gas prices started climbing again. If you think that market manipulation isn't taking place, you have your head in the sand. All this is to say, they don't want us buying this diesel vehicles.

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@ Tim -

ULSD is actually heavily processed. Its maximum sulfur content of 15ppm max is half that currently permitted for gasoline (that will change in 2010). Moreover, with the dollar so weak against the Euro, US refineries can now make earn a little more profit exporting diesel than they can selling it home. Of course, it would be easy for US refineries to produce more diesel, but only at the expense of reduced gasoline volume.

The current price ratio is not consistent with historical data, averaged across whole years:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/txt/ptb0524.html

To interpret the data, you really need to compare fuel cost per mile or better yet, total cost of ownership per mile.

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If demand for diesel fuel rises, its price will rise.
If demand for gasoline falls, its price will fall.

That is why diesel is not the universal answer to our transportation issues.

Nukes and renewables for electricity. Natural gas for transportation.

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If trucking companies are failing, its not because diesel prices are too high. It's because their market (shipping) has become saturated with suppliers. If the competition is too fierce and they can't raise prices, then I guess diesel prices are what will finally squeeze some of them out. And with fewer suppliers, price will go up (assuming demand stays the same) and those left in the game will be able to absorb the higher fuel costs.

In 1999, someone who knew a little about programming computers could make 6 figures, but since then demand has slackened AND lots more programmers have come into the market. What's that mean? Well, I'll tell you for a fact that I don't make 6 figures.. in fact, I know nurses that make more than me because of a short supply of nurses currently in the healthcare industry!

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CT-Jake- While possible an alarmist post, I too have always wondered why diesel was all of a sudden more expensive. Maybe demand for it has increased as the demand for more diesel engines has as well? But I'm also not with blinders to ignore the possibility of price and product manipulation.

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This is why I was saying earlier about how I'd be nervous as a car company jumping into Diesel for the first time. Start a 3 year project to make a Diesel motor only to find Diesel's aren't economically viable due to increased demand for the fuel before your engine is even ready?

And as to the idea that Diesel goes down in the summer due to reduction in fuel oil demand. Well, it's not completely untrue. But in reality, the petroleum companies learned a long time ago to adjust the output of the various products they can make to match seasonal demand. So in the summer, it isn't that the heavy fuel oil (Diesel feel stock) just sits around, with the prices slashed to move it. Instead, the companies start cracking more of that into products like gas and kerosene (jet fuel) that are more in demand in the summer.

Personally, my bet on the petroleum fuel war is on lean burn (HCCI) gas engines. They don't require big heavy, high compression blocks nor turbochargers to make the outputs that cars need, and they run on regular gas. And they don't need urea injection just to meet the slack LEV II (tier 2 bin 5) emissions. Heck, they even start better in winter!

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Higher diesel taxes causing the gap? No way. Maybe in a handful of areas, but certainly not here. On Monday, I paid $3.749/gal for diesel and gasoline was on the pump next to it at $2.999/gal. Premium gas was probably $3.20 or maybe $3.25. In my state (Minnesota), state+federal taxes add up to $0.384 for gasoline and $0.444 for diesel. There was waaay more than a 6-cent gap.

The widest difference between gasoline and diesel taxes I've been able to find is in Florida. Their fuel taxes vary due to the inclusion of sales tax, so it's difficult to quantify exactly. Still, it's only 20 cents or so.

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I just have to chuckle in regards to people who claim diesel is 40% better than gasoline.

I drive a 2002 MINI Cooper and I regularly get 35-36 mpg (almost 100% city driving). Just FYI, PRE-2008 EPA figure for the MINI Cooper is 28 city, 36 hwy, 32 combined. I didn't buy a miracle MINI, but simply drive under optimal conditions, during non-rush-hour traffic. I also get 10% better than EPA with my hybrid, too.

Diesel owners who brag about their high mileage are probably those who drive at constant speeds for a long period of time, like long stretches of highway. Here's the news: gasoline engines driving at constant speeds gets great mileage, too.

Achieving great mileage on daily driving is worth a good pat on the back, but driving a slow (0-60 in 14 seconds) VW and get 50 mpg is NOT the same as driving a 30-mpg gasser with twice the performance (and that's without turbo). I personally do not care about performance and I'd personally wish that everyone drives slower, but let's compare apple-to-apples here. Put in a smaller gasoline engine and get 0-60 in 14 seconds, then I'm sure the difference in fuel savings would be insignificant.

Now, I know diesel-heads would say that diesels are still better with greater torque. Great, no argument there. But drive aggressively with a diesel in the city will KILL the mileage performance. It's no different than a lead-foot driver with a tiny gas engine and revving it at high rpms all the time.


Looking at diesel prices historically, it used to be much more stable, far more so than gasoline. There are many reasons why it's no longer the case, and I won't get into it. I can tell you all now that it would only get WORSE if more passenger vehicles start to use diesel. For those who want to make their own fuel, more power to you. But I can bet money now that if you're too vocal about it, you will get prosecuted. Both our government and its corporate sponsors will not let people do such things, and that will go double if there are more diesel vehicles on the road.

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Someone didn't get the memo that a diesel MINI gets 60 mpg.

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@Mulad:

What's funny is that you also did not mention this brand new MINI Cooper D has features in fuel savings and tweaks in performance that is MORE than just the diesel engine. It's gain is the SUM of its parts, not because of it having a diesel engine.

Honda had tweaks on a Honda Civic HX engine that gave it a huge jump on highway mileage; something like 42-45 mpg in the 90's. If Honda wants to bring down the HP and put similar tech into a comparable Fit today, it can do it. The problem is that people in the US still wants more power and rank fuel usage as low priority.

What we have here is a MINI Cooper D that is engineered to give that balance. In another few years, new gasoline engines with all sort of tweaks will close that gap again. It's a stupid rat race and there's no point to it. Stick with gasoline for cars, and diesel for trucks, and we all work toward renewables in electricity.

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The reason diesel has more energy than gasoline is that it takes more crude oil (give or take, it's about 25% more) to make a gallon of diesel than a gallon of gas. Diesel _weighs more_ than gasoline even. Given that, you'd expect diesel to cost more (it costs less in Europe because there's a legacy of using cheap diesel as a way to bolster European manufacturers--mostly diesel--against foriegn competition (mostly gasoline).

Diesel isn't magic pixie fairy dust: you're physically burning oil fuel per gallon of diesel consumed. Compression ignition helps, but you can do compression ignition with gasoline (HCCI) but we're not quite there yet.

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