AutoblogGreen

The US has had little chance to re-accept diesel cars. T2B5 emissions and the late release of ultra-low sulphur fuel have meant model availability is spotty at best.

Limited choice hasn't helped. I can't afford Mercedes; I won't buy VW yet (too many models with decent design but pricey maintenance). I'm waiting to see Honda's new diesel, and hoping Ford finally brings the Duratorq family to the US. Give me something I can realy use today: An affordable, practical diesel minivan.

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When you think of Americans, always remember the quote by James Schlesinger (the first energy secretary,1977): We have only two modes, complacency and panic. Sadly, our leaders should have been promoting diesels, electric, etc.(AKA,energy security) starting on Sept.12th, 2001. To answer the question above, Americans will embrace anything that gets 50+ mpg with gas at $4.00 a gallon and beyond.

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I think the idea that Americans won't accept diesels are overblown. There is a whole generation of car buyers who did not experience the bad diesels of the 70's and early 80's. I think the bigger problem is the premium we pay for diesel fuel. In my part of the country, diesel fuel is 50 cents per gallon more expensive than regular. If saving money is my main purchase criteria, a Hybrid Civic is a better buy than a new Jetta TDI. Even though the TDI will probably get higher mpg.

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While it wouldn't make sense flood the market with diesels, it certainly makes sense to begin offering them as an option on popular vehicles. Buyers will learn that these are not the miserable diesels from the 70s/80s

US diesel suspicion is something you can blame GM for, the VW, MB, Volvo and Peugeot diesels that came to the US in the 70s were different and quirky but were good engines. In fact nearly half the MB sold during that time were diesels. The GM diesel that was a converted from the 350ci gas motor was a awful piece of engineering.

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The best of both worlds would be GM's E-Flex Range-Extended Electric Vehicle with a biodiesel range extender! Why?

1) The primary power would quickly transition from Coal to renewable, distributed electricity such as home Solar PV.

1) Diesels work best at constant speed and load as in a generator.

2) The Transesterification of raw oil into biodiesel takes FAR less energy than it takes to ferment and distill grain or cellulose into ethanol.

3) Biodiesel is FAR more energy dense than ethanol. The more dense the fuel, the less energy wasted in transport and the higher the return.

4) We can make biodiesel out of ANY oil NOW without waiting years of further experimentation as in cellosic ethanol. Algae would only make biodiesel cheaper.

The biggest problems with biodiesel are cold temperature jelling and rancidity both of which can be solved with (hopefully natural) additives.

Of course, there is the corn lobby buying politicians but that’s another matter.

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Diesel contains ~12% more energy by volume, so it's only reasonable that it should carry a corresponding premium.

Fuel cost per mile will still be lower because of the high efficiency of diesel engines. On the other hand, the engine itself and especially, the exhaust gas aftertreatment systems, are more expensive than the gasoline alternative. Consumers need to stop looking at just MPG and price per gallon and start looking at total cost of ownership, incl. depreciation, insurance, maintenance, taxes & fees etc. Manufacturers would be wise to provide consumers with web-based tools that allow them to make those calculations.

As a general guideline, diesel does make sense in the US if the vehicle is at least mid-sized, you drive at least 12,000 miles a year with it and, most of those miles are at freeway speeds (i.e. not in traffic jams on freeways).

A diesel will make little sense if your trips are typically so short the block doesn't get a chance to warm up. Also, diesel is a hassle if winter temperatures can drop below ~0 degF in your neck of the woods.

The economic externalities for diesel are much less favorable in the US than in Europe, so its market share will never reach European levels. That means the market for second-hand diesels will also be smaller.

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A few points:
- diesel is taxed less than gasoline in most European countries, therefore cheaper than gas
- diesel gets roughly 20% better efficiency than gasoline, therfore lower operating costs
- European cars do not require expensive diesel pollution controls making the initial price premium over gasoline smaller than in North America

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GM, Toyota Doubtful on Fuel Cells' Mass Use

"If we get lithium-ion to 300 miles, then you need to ask yourself, Why do you need fuel cells?" Mr. Lutz told reporters. He added that fuel-cell vehicles are still far too expensive to be considered for the mass market. "We are nowhere [near] where we need to be on the costs curve," he said.

To read the complete article: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120468405514712501.html

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"Furthermore, the same people in the study were under the impression that gasoline-powered cars achieved better fuel economy than diesels."

When gas (regular unleaded) is considerably cheaper than diesel, like it is here in Texas the above statement is correct and beyond refute given the minimal mpg increase of a Diesel.

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LOL.

Laughing stock, Lutz is nothing if not inconsistent. Previously he said Hydrogen would save GM:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14848423/

"Hydrogen fuel cell-powered vehicles could hit showrooms as early as 2011 and the technology will revitalize General Motors, GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said"

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I get envious of the high mileage figures of European diesels until I do the math. With an up-front premium of at least $2000 to buy a diesel and fuel pricing at $.50 per gallon above unleaded, the advantages are all but erased. If I went from my average of 32 MPG to 45 MPG in the same subcompact model, the savings are $.01 per mile at 250,000 miles (including purchase price of vehicle). Using 125,000 miles on the car, savings would be just $223.

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Hello from Ireland

Over here the excise dutie difference between petrol and diesel is about 15% in favour off diesel. Diesel is about 1-2% below petrol costs sometimes the same in the past it has being a lot cheaper. In recent times diesel has climbed more then petrol but is still the same or cheaper to buy. In this country from july the sales tax you pay on your car when you buy a new one will be linked to g co2 per km. Road tax will also be linked to co2 with a car emiting under 120g km costing 100 euros per mth up to a top rate of 2,000 euros if your car uses over 225gkm as you can see we are going to see a huge increase in the sale of diesels and hybrids. This has being implemented without even a wimper from the general public so could be done stateside to. People are selfish and will let other people make the enviormentally sound buying decisions. This makes the decision to buy a low poluting car real easy and will make a huge difference to our fleet. They had stupid tax breaks foy hybrids so a guy buying a lexus 450 hybrid is getting 11,500 euros of the price of his car this will be capped after july when they enter the new system. So it is easy to make hybrids and diesels cheap just tax the big poluters.
On a brighter note the new diesel engines are fantastic to drive far better then the same size petrol engines and americans will love them because yeah seem to like torque a lot.

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Yes, and I'll take a sub-$18k Fiat 500, Multijet 1.3 powered one.

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I know there are a lot of pro-diesel fans here, and there will be more, as diesel advertisement blitz will shift to a higher gear in the coming years.

All that said, US probably will have a much tougher time in adopting diesel. First off, US refineries is not optimize for diesel, and the ULSD requirement (by gov't and by new generation of diesels) costs a significant investment for the refinery owners. This and various other factors (harvesting season, etc) have caused diesel prices to fluctuate wildly in the last few years. Biodiesel will hardly be the answer as most people do not have access to it, and feedstock prices continue to climb.

All the above is about the cost of the fuel. At the same time, the cost of the diesel variant will not be cheap. Diesel vehicles differs more than just the fuel and the engine. The difference in torque means different transmission and emissions means different exhaust equipment. The added cost for the variant means a hard sale for low-margin vehicles (like a diesel Calibre will never happen).

At this time, the main strategy for US manufacturers, including Honda, is to sell diesels are a premium vehicle. Most of these are priced at $30k and up. While a slowed economy may not affect the luxury market, in general, the numbers will be low.

As mentioned many times, hybrids and battery development (transition to EV )would be a path. There is definitely a place for diesel right now as a stop-gap measure, but I'd rather see more hybrids/PHEV/EV than passenger diesels.

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I love diesels, but this technology has its limits. Here in germany, the diesel fuel is subsidized by lower taxes, on the other way there is a tax penalty you pay once per year. Thus diesels make most sense for long distances. Since the technology is more expensive, bigger cars make more sense.

That was about economy, what about the environment? Sure diesels are more effective than traditional gasoline engines, but blown direct injection engines catch up. And then there is the problem of wasted energy when braking. Thus a hybrid makes more sense than a diesel in situations, where you start and stop often -- typical city traffic. Of course the combination of the diesel and hybrid might be the best, but too expensive for most applications. (It may make economical sense in some fleets).

Thus, one should promote both technologies: Hybrids for the city, diesels for those long, smooth highway commutes. Unfortunately most taxation systems do not promote this.

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I see T2B5 as the real chance for Diesel. I wouldn't touch them before because they were soot producers. Pre 2007 models didn't even have particulate filters.

Now that they have really cleaned up their act, diesels are on my list.

But in the end it comes down to results. If priced the same as a gas hybrid and it gets similar mileage to a hybrid, then I will go with the gas hybrid for the cheaper/more available fuel.

I figure I will be looking for a new car in '09 or '10, I currently drive a '99 that I bought new.

I want smallish wagon or hatchback with high MPG and preferably a manual shifter.

Time will tell, but my thougths are Acura TSX diesel, Subaru Outback diesel, VW (Jetta/Golf) diesel and Honda CR-Z may all be possibilities.

As I get done type that, I realize yet again that the domestics will essentially have nothing of interest in this space.

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Charles s you have hit the other key point I missed, refinery capacity. Our refineries are running full tilt, and I have not heard of any new refineries going up due to the low margins.

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We also have to compare the premium for increased fuel economy, given a small car you can increase economy with 3 choices of engines with equivelent performance. You can go with a small ICE with a turbo which would likely be cheapest, but insurance companies see turbos as a performance model and charge more. A hybrid offers the best economy but carries the highest price. Diesels will be the most popular option given the trade offs.

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For all the arguments against people buying diesels in the US the fact is when I worked in VW sales we had at least three people a day coming in asking for our diesels new or used. We were trained to tell those customers that the savings in fuel and cost of the vehicle did not out weigh the cost oover the gas model. Almost every potential diesel customer would turn around and walk out because they did not care. It was about using less fuel over all. Some didn't care if it was a gas hybrid or diesel they just wanted to reduce the amount of fuel they currently were using. We have people on the waiting list with money down for the diesels. A lot of those drivers owned a VW diesel in the past and are adamant on buying the latest version. As for me I AVERAGE 43 mpg in my tdi Beetle, with roof racks, and I know that the current Beetles average about 25mpg. I can go about 235 miles farther per tank and I LOVE the torque the engine has. I don't race nor do I ever care to but, every day drivability puts a smile on my face.

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My next car will be a diesel.

I'll use a block heater first (electricity is still much cheaper than any liquid fuel) to maximize mileage.

But the biggest appeal to me is energy security.

Here in the U.S. home heating oil is little more than on-road diesel with dye added.

Insurance and local ordinances let me store hundreds of gallons of "heating oil" at my home (can't do that w/ petrol!)

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