AutoblogGreen

When you think about it, makes sense. Nobody has had to make motors or control systems of the size needed to move cars in the quantities we are talking about. Even in the early 2000's with the California ZEVs being made, they were still only in the hundreds. The Tesla will be in the high hunreds to low thousands. For EVs to become mainstream you are talking 100 times the quantity that anybody up to now has produced.

Reply

"they are trying to mass-produce electric cars"

hmm...

Like they were trying to sell the EV1 ?
Ran into trouble immediately: no demand for the EV1

Yeah , right.

And today - like a whole decade later - one of the biggest auto-makers in the world is having trouble mounting small electric engines to the support systems (power steering, brakes, AC, et.c.) !?
They're just looking for profits in the OEMs !
That's what they're really talking about.

Well if you want to believe they're trying, maybe you feel better.
I'm sad to say I believe they're way too deep in clinch w the drilling for "the devils' feces".

What'll be the next obstacle?


"The love of Money is the root of all evil"



* * * STOP burning things to get power !!! * * *

Reply

. . . Yeah , and

THE biggest auto-maker ( Toyota ) in the world
just recently said :
" Toyota tells Popular Mechanics battery production is the "biggest hurdle" to plug-in cars "

Go figure...


All over the world , we should

* * * S T O P burning things to get power ! * * *

-> stone age man gained control over fire ....

... time to move on ?

Reply

Ooops! Sorry! That was already covered.
( It's 03.30 a.m. over here - if that's a valid excuse )
Please delete this and my #3 post about Toyota. Sorry!

Reply

The Japanese have battery technology that is far beyond what is currently on the market. What is their motivation to release the technology until they have to?

Check out videos, pics, news and more about the volt at http://www.chevy-volt.net

Reply

That, or it shows that they will find any excuse not to produce electric cars ;D

(OMG IT"S THE BATTERIES)
(OMG IT"S THE SUPPLY CHAIN)

Reply

seyoda:
No, the Japanese don't have any advantage in battery technology. And who is the Japanese anyway? You think Japan, Inc. is holding this back?

Reply

Well... to be fair, Subaru's G4e concept car uses a battery with a lithium vanadium oxide cathode, giving it twice the energy density over standard li-ion. Not that this battery tech is in mass production or anything. Lithium vanadium oxide has the potential to scale to three times the energy density of traditional li-ion; it's one of the big upcoming battery techs to watch.

Reply

Anybody know how much copper is in an EV?

Reply

TomtenT,
Your naiveté would be charming if your delivery weren’t so acerbic. Sure, the OEM’s goal is that dirty word, “profit”. Stock holders would revolt if their investments were not given the proper attention.

That said, anyone who has been responsible for taking a prototype and putting it into volume production will understand the effort required. When you can build on existing production knowledge, like machining a new engine block, the process can go relatively quickly. But when you don’t have past production experience with a product, and you have the government and trial lawyers looking over your shoulder, it is an all new ball game.

Walk a mile in my shoes TTT, it would be a good experience for you.

Reply

I call BS! Diesel locomotives, and heavy construction equipment are series hybrids, operating their ICE engine to provide electricity to do work.

Gas/Electric hybrids and EV conversions have been around for awhile now, there are suppliers who make the parts needed, or similar parts, and they'll be able to fulfill larger orders if given enough time to expand their capacity.

Additionally, electric motors are absolutely everywhere. From laundry machines to the heavyduty kind Raser Tech is going to be building with Hyundai Heavy Industries, building electric motors is not new, and there are plenty of factories that handle large orders.

Reply

50,000 is a little different than 300. They're not pushing the date back, just saying it might have redundant systems.

People like TT are the biggest hypocrites around. GM made a sound business decision. If they offered the EV1 today it still would not sell 60,000 a year. It's sell 2,000 or so to environmentalists and GM would lose money on every car at $50,000.

Supposedly green people try to make a statement by criticizing GM while they hurt the first car that will change things. They're doing it out of some kind of power trip to punish GM.

GM will try to make money, that's for sure, they've got their goal clearly defined. Green people should decide if they want to be right or help the environment.

Reply

Dave,
Diesel locomotives and construction equipment have as much in common with automotive vehicles as a whale to a gold fish. They are diesel electric because the engines run so slowly and produce power in such a narrow RPM range that they would require a transmission with an impossible number of gear ratios.

Sure, we know how to build electic motors, Dave, now adapt one to a steering system. No cheating by driving a hydraulic pump and using existing power steering systems. Also develop an electronic control that takes steering input and directs the front wheels and provides feedback through the steering wheel like you experience today. (One of the most difficult issues was "dithering" when on center) Oh, and be sure that you can still steer if the motor, controller or battery fails. Do the same with power brakes.

These devices must be as efficient as possible so as to not impact vehicle range significantly.

Sure, existing suppliers can crank up production volumes. But that means larger facilities and equipment. That means capital investment. It also means committing to the OEM system of constant cost reduction, ISO quality systems, penalties if you don't deliver on time and shut a production line down etc.

Building and selling to the OEM's is not a game Dave. They don't play around. If you can't deliver or your quality slips you'll have their people in your shop and they WILL take over to be sure they get their parts. Any manufacturer contemplating taking on this business had better be prepared and have the resources to do the job.

Reply

GM has stated that the efficiency of the electronic components must be improved to maximize range and reduce battery size and therefore cost.

Gen I Volt will hit the market before many of these new components can be mass invented much less mass produced and that's why the target price is rising.

Gen II Volt will hit the market with a better supply of the new mass produced high-efficiency electric components. This will extend range and lower costs.

GM is just trying something new here other than the electrification of the automobile... full disclosure during development.

This is VERY dangerous and unprecedented.

Full disclosure during development is like Thomas Edison putting out a press release each time he tried a new filament for the light bulb. The hope, triumph, failure and repeat until success cycle can make anyone bipolar especially an audience of skeptical bloggers who are used to our current “I want it now” ME generation.

Patience and understanding is warranted here but this MUST be tempered with a fair amount of scientism and mistrust.

GM, you’re still innocent until proven guilty but…

WE’RE WATCHING YOU!!

Reply

Perhaps I am ignorant, but I don't understand why any of the systems have to be changed all that much. I understand Whopper's point that the design and scale-up of the first fully electrified (non-hydraulic) power steering system will take time and effort, but I don't understand why a new drive-train requires this.

I know plenty of folks here don't think much of conversion EVs, but if nothing else they show that current systems can be left intact and can be made to work perfectly well with an EV or hybrid.

I've seen GMs "Damn Dirty Hippies drive Hybrids" TV spot in mainstream prime time a couple of times (I'll accept the argument that it might be appropriate on "Adult Swim"). Now I hear they're doing much more systems engineering than would be strictly necessary. I've gone back and forth, but it's hard not to be skeptical that their collective heart is really in it.

Reply

[GM chimed in on the "why is the EV (electric car) so hard to make discussion?" in the Detroit News today.]

Do you guys have an editor? It should read: GM chimed in on the "Why is the EV (electric car) so hard to make?" discussion in the Detroit News today. It took me a few seconds to figure out what you were actually saying. You should never put your reader in that position. They'll go read something else.

Reply

Goodcheer- Any idea how many watts a modern 6 speaker automotive stereo systems pulls? How about wipers, headlights, cabin lights, dash lights, fan motors, power windows, and all those things like compressors that must be optimized and/or electrified. Now what about parasitic losses like control electronics? All these things draw power and reduce the range in an EV. They really didn’t matter with the ICEs because these are relatively inefficient anyway and we could quickly “recharge” them extremely dense power source (oil). This is NOT the case with electrons.

It will take time and LOTS of $$$ to redesign them all for optimal efficiency instead of just maximum power and low cost. LED lighting, new motor designs, more efficient computer control systems, the list goes on and on.

Rome was NOT built in a day and it was built ONE house at a time.

Reply

And last I checked, Toyota was not GM.

Reply

Tim and Whopper you just described the Prius. It already has electric power steering, electrically controlled brakes, electric water pump, and electric air conditioning. The only mechanically driven component is the alternator. And last I checked Toyota was planning on selling over 200K this year.

Reply

When Toyota sells 200K Prius' they will have captured 1.2% of the overall US market. For Ev's to be successful, and be in "production", they will have to meet more mainstream demand. While people who are "green" will sacrifice some comfort to purchase them, the general public will want the comforts to which they've become accustomed.

The Prius is functional, like my regrigerator, but not something I would like to live with on a daily basis. When weather permits I commute on my motorcycle; I have a full sized pickup for less ideal weather and hauling "stuff". The Harley is for fun, the pickup is functional. If the pickup was plug-in electric it would be fine with me, I'm not married to the V-8. But I still need the range and serviceability. That means at least 150 mile range, 70 mph cruise, heat and a/c and the ability to carry a load not compromised by batteries.

Reply