Filed under: Hybrid
French researchers slam hybrids, say they block other innovations
French researchers Jean-Jacques Chanaron Research and Julius Teske have taken the growing fondness for gas-electric hybrid vehicles to task. In a new article in the International Journal of Automotive Technology and Management the pair assert that the focus on hybrids, especially in the U.S., may be putting the brakes on developing other technologies. They don't feel that hybrid technology is sustainable over the long term and claim that fuel cell technology may be the best long-term solution. One major problem they see with hybrids is a lack of profitability. While there is some logic to their arguments, the reality is that - while most automakers are working on hybrids - the auto industry already recognizes that current hybrid technology won't earn vehicle the gains necessary to meet upcoming regulatory requirements and they are looking at other solutions.
[Source: PureGreenCars, thanks to Domenick for the tip]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
eddy 3:56PM (2/11/2008)
Hybrids are just a transition product for real electric cars. With a great amount of Hybrids on the road development of adequate battery technologie becomes necessary.In that tramsition-time PHEVs with a range of about 100-150 miles could massivly lower oil-consumption. Fuel Cells still have the quite big problem of H2 storage, while EVs have "solved" the Range-problem they had with PHEVs.
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raygundan 4:39PM (2/11/2008)
eddy nailed it. Hybrid cars are a foot in the door for pure electric vehicles, which include hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles.
Hybrid -> Plug-in Hybrid -> Range-extended EV -> EV -> Hydrogen EV
That seems like a perfectly reasonable stepwise approach to the ultimate goal of hydrogen vehicles, and it avoids the all-or-nothing result of shooting for too much at once. We can have the benefits of the intermediate steps now.
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Karkus 4:54PM (2/11/2008)
Looks they forgot to give us a list of all of the highly profitable fuel cell vehicles out there and list their sales numbers. Oh wait, thats because there are none.
There are about a million hybrids on the road, most of them sold profitably by Toyota. And yet,
the hybrids did not stop Toyota from reserching fuel cell vehicles.
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08/toyotas_fine-n_1.php
They also don't seem to realize that pretty much any fuel cell vehicle will also be a hybrid, so that most of the technology being developed for gasoline-electric hybrids will also be applicable for fuel cell-electric hybrids. See the link above.
(it's like that stupid hybrid vs diesel debate. It doesn't make sense, since you can have both. Diesel-hybrid buses and trains exist, and a Peugeot car will come out soon too).
And this is even funnier:
"such as viable fuel-cell cars that can use sustainably sourced fuels, such as hydrogen."
Last time I checked, there wasn't much hydrogen gas floating around (and even less that was sustainably made, nor any that was cheap). Sure, you can use solar cells to make hydrogen and then use it in a fuel cell. Nice but not efficient or cheap. Better to use that electricity and make an electric vehicle with it.
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Snowdog 5:32PM (2/11/2008)
Great Post Karkus. Yep that article just doesn't make sense in any way.
Actually ,if there is anything I don't see catching on, it is hydrogen. Hydrogen is essentially just a storage medium and a fairly poor one at that.
Compared to batteries, it is less efficient at conversion, and lacks the distribution. You can get electricity nearly everywhere. Where can you get Hydrogen?
Even with just evolutionary changes, batteries will soon be good enough for at least commuter cars.
If I need a range extender (like the Volt) for longer trips, I would prefer it be readily available Gasoline, rather than exotic hydrogen.
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rgseidl 5:42PM (2/11/2008)
Hydrogen fuel cells appeared to be a necessary evil back when GM forced CARB to change its ZEV mandate because the battery technology of the day wasn't up to snuff. We're still not quite there, but rapid progress is being made. Tesla is selling its roadster for $100k. Rumor has it the Honda Clarity costs $5 million a pop to manufacture but CARB rules effectively force auto makers to sell fuel cell vehicles at a loss.
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Tush 5:54PM (2/11/2008)
Boo hydrogen, I don't want another centralized fuel source! I can generate my own electricity and store it in batteries, thank you.
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A.Brien 7:44PM (2/11/2008)
Hybrid is the addition in one package of 2 inneficients technologies, gas + batteries. It's not surprising toyota want to cash-in on these 2 outdated technologies. Fuelcell is the best availlable technology right now and it's already on the road working just fine. But as the pollitically (in) corrupt manufacturers have made
theirs fuelcell prototypes they have to be fueled
by outside hydrogen pump and this is the main block
as nobody want to sell hydrogen because they feel
with good reason that they will not make money out of it because hydrogen can be made cheaply with numerous methods. They have to put an hydrogen generator inside the car that convert water to hydrogen then fuelcell car can become mainstreem.
Hydrogen is the father of all energy their is on the planet. It's the sun that start the energy and
biology cycle on earth and the sun is constituted of hydrogen and biology finnish as petrol in the ground when the cycle is finnish.
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T2 8:21PM (2/11/2008)
" the reality is that - while most automakers are working on hybrids - the auto industry already recognizes that current hybrid technology won't earn vehicle the gains necessary to meet upcoming regulatory requirements and they are looking at other solutions."
Hmmm that's certainly NOT the reality for Toyota, they are pumping out hybrids like there's no tomorrow.
Free speech aside and with all due respect, this report from PureGreenCars is yet another form of groundless attack on the Prius and must be an embarrassment to others within french academia.
They do make one point about 'misinformed' consumers, they must be referring to those purchasing Honda Civic Hybrids with the less than successful IMA or the Malibu Huybrid which intends to save the planet with a 2mpg reduction from its BAS system.
Other than that, I am disappointed that Autogreencars sees fit to provide a conduit for this type of nonsense.
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gsolman6 10:58PM (2/11/2008)
"while most automakers are working on hybrids - the auto industry already recognizes that current hybrid technology won't earn vehicle the gains necessary to meet upcoming regulatory requirements and they are looking at other solutions."
What does that mean?
The new CAFE requirement will be 35 mpg by 2020 while the current Prius gets a 46 mpg combined while also being a PZEV right now!
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Emil 6:20AM (2/12/2008)
I try to hold myself from tough exressions about those 2 gentlemen, but it seems me like accusing Rudolf Diesel on our dependence on oil.
Come on - the hybrid technology and its best feature - recapturing energy - doesn't contradict any other technology !
The first Honda fuel cell vehicle is called FCHV - Fuel Cell Hybrid Vehicle.
I can't get how hybrids can harm a Project Better Place ... If I can get a PHEV in 2010 - still there will be a lot of traditional vehicles and gas stations. So i will put gas in my car or recharge if there is a recharging station around.
Of course Toyota can't invest unlimited sums of money - so it prefers to advance with hybrids. Renault plans to sell EV's . Honda goes with FCX Clarity.
So let's go together, because there is a common enemy -the hazardous emissions and the dependence of oil.
When I still see lots of new cars that use more than 10L per 100KM / MPG below 25 - the arguments which technology is better seem me ridiculous.
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M1EK 10:42AM (2/12/2008)
What you're seeing here is the refreshing fact that the French can FUD it up just as well as GM can.
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Steve 11:04AM (2/12/2008)
I am SO SICK of hearing about hydrogen. People really are completely clueless about this. It is NOT GREEN IN ANY WAY!
There is only ONE way I see hydrogen becoming widely and cheaply available, and it doesnt do anything to help automakers bring down the costs of the cars themselves: plasma reactors which can reprocess garbage into energy and hydrogen.
The problem with these plasma reactors is that some toxic gases (carbon monoxide, among others) come along with the hydrogen, and there's some toxic solid waste (mostly heavy metals) as well. So even that has years to go and a lot more development (IE solutions for the usage and/or cleanup of the byproducts) before it's truly viable on a large-scale basis. And again, it doesn't do anything to help automakers find an alternative to platinum (that IS what causes the huge fuel cell prices, right?) in fuel cells themselves.
Honestly, doesn't anyone remember where most of us first heard about hydrogen cars? It was one of Bush's State of the Union speeches. ANYTHING Bush says about helping the envrionment should be taken with about six tons of salt.
The bottom line is that billions of dollars are being wasted wholesale on an idea that just plain won't work. Much better to spend that money on those lithium nanowire batteries or more reliable green methods of electricity generation. But alas, all we ever seem to hear about is ethanol and hydrogen, both of which are being pushed by the ignorant and those who stand to benefit.
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fuel cell is just another gas 3:12AM (2/13/2008)
fuel cell is gas, just different. we'll have hydrogen stations or e85 stations but they're still ripping our wallets out. So the French research could do some REAL research and look into EVs and see that it is a real cost saver. Oh wait I bet he works for the carmakers to promote fuel cell oops i meant like-gas fuel. LOL.
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Bob Wilson 9:10PM (2/24/2008)
Having paid $40 for the worthless Chanaron and Teske report, Sam's posting is a fair representation. As others have pointed out, there are obviously flaws. For example on pp. 279 they claim,"Since the price premium for HEV technology when compared with comparable conventional gasoline vehicles is estimated at US$ 4000 per vehicle,5 it means that so far, the OEMs cannot profitably sell HEV." Yet they ignore gasoline vehicles that also cost much more than the "$4,000" as if those gas vehicles are immune from profit issues. Worse, they leave this "$4,000" premium hanging in the air while ignoring the 1,000,000 hybrids Toyota has already sold, a potential loss of $4B, as if the readers can't do basic math.
I don't fault Sam since he didn't transcribe the worst claims attributed to this flawed paper. But given the follow-up posts, this paper needs to fade back into obscurity.
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Bob Wilson 5:27PM (7/29/2008)
Due to a "... very clever marketing and communication campaigns than on pure rational scientific arguments ..." Chanaron and Teske have met $140/barrel oil. Perhaps their opinions have changed?
I do so enjoy shopping for the other mythical technologies ... fortunately I have a hybrid to drive around and look at them.
Bob Wilson
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