AutoblogGreen

1. When based on a cost/return, these may be better in MANY EV applications than Li-ion.

Let the best tech competitor win.

Posted at 11:20AM on Jan 25th 2008 by Tim

2. Per Firefly's promotion flier, they are only claiming a " >50%" improvement in cycle life. While this is vastly improves current Pb batteries, I have a feeling this battery only partially utalises Firefly's energy technology; and allows them to bring the technology to market in a conservative fasion.

What really excites me for Firefly is PHEV conversions(of the sort that raises a Prius to >100mpg for average commutes) could be done for under $1,500-$2,000 or so plus cost of control electronics, I figure.

Posted at 12:05PM on Jan 25th 2008 by Mike Z

3. Lets not forget other great markets for this technolgoy: Datacenters for their UPS and Solar Systems.

I look foward to them making them as general car batteries too---Figure saving 20 lbs of weight and quite possibly have a battery that lasts the life of the car!

Posted at 12:09PM on Jan 25th 2008 by Mike Z

4. Mike Z, per Firefly's website, they clearly indicate the availability of the battery will NOT be for conversions; merely corporations. Conversions are a possibility for the individual consumer but not for a couple of years. See FAQs.

Posted at 1:04PM on Jan 25th 2008 by Dave

5. Yes, But Firefly seeing that the OASIS battery is marketed at truckers, there have to be distributors set up to carry replacement batteries.

Posted at 1:55PM on Jan 25th 2008 by Mike Z

6. Hi Dave,

The FAQ appears to be out of date. It does not mention the Oasis.

Do you think that they are going to produce a battery targeted at long haul truckers and not allow individual truckers to purchase those batteries?

Do you think if someone tries to purchase their batteries for a conversion they are going to require a copy of a pink slip to prove you are a long haul trucker?

Mitch

Posted at 4:01PM on Jan 25th 2008 by MitchJi

7. All the good growth companies are privately held. Thanks for the update.

Posted at 4:01PM on Jan 25th 2008 by Mort

8. This battery technology could be a serious alternative to lithium or nickle metal hydride batteries for BEVs and PHEVs. The companies web site says thay can eliminate 70% of the lead in a traditional Pb/acid battery and increase the energy capacity of the battery to 170 WH/Kg up from 30WH/Kg conventional Pb acid battery. They also claim they can produce this battery for 1/5 the cost of a Lithium or nickle type batteries.
I LIKE the 1/5 the cost part.

Posted at 4:42PM on Jan 25th 2008 by bioburner

9. The cost I've heard for Firefly is aroung $100/kWh.

I'm not sure about BEVs for this technology, after all they only approach NhMi batteries in terms of performance, which gave the EV-1 and RAV4 Evs ~100 Mile range, which is still too low for most people in terms of safety net.

I could see them a way to make short range PHEVs a reality quickly, even if the their life cycle is only good for 50,000 or so miles, it would be cheap to replace (>$1000) (think of it as new tires, breaks, shocks). I wish Ford would drop them in the Escape.

Actually the technology I like them the most for is for Mild and Weak hybrids, like Honda's IMA and GM's BAS Systems.

Think about it, basically the BAS system is just a bigger alternater, some control electronics, and a battery pack. A Firefly battery could likely mean implementing a weak hybrid system would cost under $500-$700.

Posted at 5:23PM on Jan 25th 2008 by Mike Z

10. I'd like to see more companies pushing the cost/performance envelope for lead technology.

It must put pricing pressure on NhMi and Lithium ion. Consumers should eventually get a better deal for energy storage.

I guess they will test the market by pricing them slightly discounted to NhMi. If they are genuinely competive in the PHEV market, we will see better pricing when they ramp up and go for market share.

Then we might see Li ion slashing prices - roll on!

Posted at 9:20PM on Jan 25th 2008 by Andy

11. Don't hold your breath on cheaper Li batteries. The best separator made today is made by .-.-.-.-.-.-"drumroll", Exxonmobile ! I'm talking about the polypropylene separator used between the sheets of lithium.
Now tell me again..... What is their incentive to give up their oil profits, ( close to 40 BILLION) close down and clean up thier filthy refinery sites?????? All in order to help make batteries 'cheaper'? Please..... They would rather see the world burn than give up their profits.

Posted at 8:36AM on Jan 26th 2008 by ty

12. What am I missing here ? They claim great weight savings. Their pdf at:
http://www.fireflyenergy.com/images/stories/pdfs/G31%20Specification%20Sheet%20012308.pdf
shows that battery will weigh 70 lbs.

What is the weight of a similar sized truck battery with common lead plates ?

Posted at 10:39AM on Jan 26th 2008 by Steve Sarbot

13. This battery technology was first patented by Alvin Snaper of Tang and IBM Selectric fame. This technology was licensed to Power Technology, PWTC. Members of of the scientific team took certain aspects of the technology with them to FireFly which had the capital to further refine existing patent rights.

"Mr. Alvin Snaper has served as a Senior Consultant to other major corporations and organizations, including IBM, General Foods, NASA, Boeing, Gillette, Singer, U.S. Air Force, Rocketdyne, General Motors, Lockheed Aircraft, Sanyo, Philips, Gulf Western, Union Carbide, etc. He has been awarded more than 600 patents, many for significant industrial products and processes. Some of his inventions and commercial products include the IBM Selectric Type Ball, Tang, the NASA Apollo Photo- Pack, Coating Process for Gillette Razor Blades, and the Electrostatic Painting Process & System for Auto Components Assemblies for General Motors, to name a few. Mr. Alvin Snaper holds the single honor and individual distinction of being recognized three times with 'Best Patent of the Year' award by Design News magazine, and is the author of numerous technical and scientific papers.

Alvin Snaper is or has been a member the following professional societies and organizations: Who's Who of American Inventors 1990-1991; VIP Electronic Improvement Program; American Ordnance Association. He is a former consultant in ultrasonics to the Library of Congress, Armed Forces Communications and Electronics Association, International Scientific Society and The Society of Photographic Instrumental Engineers."

Posted at 7:45PM on Jan 27th 2008 by Gary Moodie

14. Bioburner, where did you get the "170 Wh/Kg" figure from? All I was able to find on the Firefly website was some vague comments about "50% improvement" or "doubling the energy". That would imply a figure somewhere between 30 to 60 Wh/Kg, an improvement over standard lead acid and within striking distance of NiMH, but well short of any form of LiIon battery.

Even with that limited energy density, there will still be plenty of uses for these cells, particularly when low cost trumps performance and range. I forsee use in low cost hybrids and PHEVs, also retrofitted NEVs with improved range and/or better performance.

Posted at 9:52PM on Jan 27th 2008 by Chris M

15. Has anyone checked out the spec sheet?!
http://www.fireflyenergy.com/images/stories/pdfs/G31%20Specification%20Sheet%20012308.pdf The battery - at least in its current form (3D) is not exactly spectacular... the battery holds 1.2 KwH and weighs 32 Kg - or 37.5 wh/kg. This is only marginally better than the standard lead acid battery - check out Firefly's own white paper on the subject (chart on page 7 - where it seems Firefly inflated its energy density) http://www.fireflyenergy.com/images/stories/pdfs/Firefly%20Energy%20Oasis%20Trucking%20Industry%20Technical%20White%20Paper.pdf - I am not sure how Firefly's density got so exponentialy distorted, but Firefly's batters is still 69% lead, as compared to the standard lead acid batteries at 77%... not a huge difference. It seems that the only real benefits to Firefly's current battery offering is enhanced cycle life and extreme temperature capabilities. Unfortunately, these batteries would be completely inapropriate for BEV use.

Posted at 4:17PM on Jan 29th 2008 by David

16. I am not doubting that the power output wone be better and maybe charging and life expectancy.. that said.. 100aH for 70lbs.. thats no better than AGM UPS batteries. Powersonic PS-121000 is 100 aH at 68.9 lbs. I thought there was supposed to be a huge savings in wieght?

Posted at 7:50PM on Jan 31st 2008 by Charles Goin

17. Cycle Life!!! is the major advantage of these batteries. Perhaps slighly lower weight and improved low temperature starting are also available. Standard form factor and AGM construction allows an easy market entrance. I would try to fit one into any vehicle that I had even if it doubled the market value of the vehicle. A specialized DC-DC converter would allow the use of one or more in a Prius to extend the full electric operation range. Each unit has about 1200 watt hours in it or 6 miles according to Calcars and others. Ten would give you 60 miles for 700 pounds. Lighter weight bipolar 150 volt units, like EFFPOWER made and Atraverda threatens to make, could even have less weight. Chemical equations show that the electrolyte takes more than five times the volume of the active lead material all other lead is inefficient heavy conductors. Copper was used in some negative plates a few years back. Bipolar batteries get rid of the need for a lot of conductors and are best employed where high voltages are wanted as in the Prius. Ordinary cars with these batteries could be modified to charge their batteries mostly at home to save gasoline and never on the road except when braking or on very long trips.

Full electric cars should always have at least a small backup gasoline powered generator built into one corner or more with a few gallons of stable Butanol fuel available for emergency use. A 800 watt, one horsepower unit could keep a small car with a large battery rolling in pace with most city traffic. The OPOC can produce 13 HP and weighs only 13 pounds. Some RCV model airplane engines and others can produce nearly a horsepower or more at high speeds. There are some generators that run at 100,000 RPM right now. Refined petroleum liquid products are the lightest weight cheap energy storage system; the cost of producing hydrogen and the weight of the high pressure tanks need to store it and the weight of the fuel cells may be more than some battery systems. The Zebra battery used in the introductory models of the TH!NK car is perfect for a commuter car used every day. The Little Old Lady from Pasadena who drives to church and the store once a week would be well served by Firefly. Go Granny Go!...HG...

Posted at 2:21AM on Feb 2nd 2008 by Henry Gibson