AutoblogGreen

Acutally, the site has a awesome photo gallery on the last page. A pain to get to due to the, uh, different and slow website but worth it. Most interesting is the reservation page with information on it.

William

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This thing looks like it will fly, no, literally.
Is there enough Down-Force to keep it on the road?

I love aero-cars, what's it's coefficient of drag?
( Probably should go to the web site. )

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Looks good.
It's a prototype right? because right now it's pretty noisy.
But, 300mpg sounds peerless.

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I'm sure it has been engineered pretty well so that it has sufficient down-force to maintain good handling, but not so much as to cause unnecessary friction with the road (which would decrease the gas mileage).

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that website is the worst experience I have ever had.

it has no info at all. no contact info, no management info, no specs. nothing.

but it does lead you to a page to give them $500. I think this is a total scam. its at least a stupid company.

the car looks nice, too bad its probably BS

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Most craptacular web site ever. This shows the company to be out of touch with reality.

Interesting ideas are a dime a dozen. What matters in the end is execution. I wouldn't trust a company that can't produce an even marginal web page to execute the details of a new ground up designed transportation device.

I could understand if they didn't have time/money for a web page and just made something simple with the information but that is not the case. They actually spent more time/money building this monstrously bad web page.

Ignoring the page for a moment to comment on the car. 300MPG. Yeah right. Another bullshit/meaningless claim involving an unrevealed plug-in range component.

Don't trust anyone who reports MPG rating by including an undocumented amount of plug in range. The only sane way to report a PHEV mileage is to separate them out. As in the Volt with 40 Mile electric range and 50MPG ICE MPG.

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Agreed: horrible web site.
If you persist, though, they have some good, although vague ideas about building a light weight and safe "car" with a space frame and composite skin emphasizing aerodynamics.
The link to the NC Times article lends a little credibility to the fact that the company exists and isn't just a scam. The videos show the test model actually driving around a parking lot too.
Don't focus on the "300 mpg" number too much. The car will be offered as a pure EV or a plug-in gas hybrid electric. If you use either one to commute, the MPG is effectively infinite. It's clear the company needs to raise a lot of money and design a better web site, but I like the basic concept a lot.

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I find "Infinite" worse than 300mpg. I want real honest numbers.

What is the electric only range?

What is the ICE MPG when the electric range is over?

Those require straight forward honest numbers. All the other gibberish is bullshit.

And battery life is not infinite. Tesla has specified a 100000 mile battery pack life and $40K price. 40K/100K = 40 Cents per mile operating cost. That is a brutal number, but at least it is honestly presented. BTW Compare that to a Hummer on Gas usage!

I like the concept of an ultralight, ultra aerodynamic vehicle as well, but I get extremely turned off by dishonest marketing speak and extremely poor execution on information presentation. Compare this crap web page and bullshit claims to the Tesla page where you get stark honest details without the crap.

If these guys want to actually bring something to market they will need to drastically improve their game. More than likely they need to bring in a lot of outside expertise, because right now they come across as a backyard project by some engineers entirely clueless about business.

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I just want to share with this board the pre-press release email sent to those on the update list:

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Dear Aptera Family,

Well, it's finally that time, the first Aptera typ-1 is complete! It's been a tough last couple of months for us here at Aptera: 7 day work-weeks, 18 hr days (and some 36 hr days!) And it's finally paid off. The vehicle is absolutely gorgeous and everyone here has done an outstanding job.

This is a significant event, because it represents the end of our R&D phase and the entry of our manufacturing phase. To celebrate, we had a little private launch party at Aptera HQ for employees, investors and key vendors. We'd like to share some pictures of that with you and let you k now (before we issue a press release) that the new website is up and running. In fact, we're now accepting fully-refundable pre-orders to reserve your production slot.

Now, let me tell you a little about the website. It's different, it's very different, but so are we. I don't want to spoil it, but it's not like a traditional car company website. On there you'll learn a lot of detail about Aptera in a neat, graphical way. You'll also see a video of the launch and pictures of this beautiful vehicle. It's been a long wait and I hope that you'll enjoy it.

So, I encourage you to help us plan our production schedule and resources by reserving the Aptera that best suits you. Choose an all electric or plug-in hybrid. You'll find details about each at the website.

Thanks for waiting!

Regards,

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My concerns with the vehicle are similar to many of those expressed on this board, I sent an email to them (at 10:30pm Saturday night) and received a reply within half an hour. Many of my questions were answered, some 'are still confidential' which I assume in most cases means either 'contracts with suppliers haven't been signed' or 'we need to do further testing'.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Hi GoodCheer,

Let me first thank you for your interest in Aptera. We took a bit of a gamble with the new style of website and not everyone likes it, that is clear. Based on the feedback we're developing a parallel site as quickly as possible that's simple and traditional.

As for your questions, the answers to most of those are still company confidential, but I'll try:



Q1: What is your battery chemistry?
A: It depends on whether it's plug-in hybrid or all electric :-)

Q2: Who makes them?
A: There are two US manufacturers.

Q3: How has battery durability been proved? (ie, charging cycles vs. capacity)
A: Yes. With rated DOD longevity exceeds most car powertrain warranties (much longer actually).

Q4: What is your battery capacity (kWh) for the electric and hybrid respectively?
A: ....not saying yet

Q5: What is the output of the hybrid generator (kW), and the electric motor?
A: 10 KW, 30 KW, respectively. The motor and generator are designed by two different US companies for us. The 3-phase motor produces 100 ft*lb of torque from 0 RPM to about 5000.

Q6: Many would want to know the displacement and configuration of the generator (eg, 900cc 2-cylinder).
A: Still confidential until I announce the MOU with the engine manufacturer.

Q7: What is the energy consumption (kWh/mile) in city and highway driving? I know motorcycles don't have to do EPA mileage testing, but many consumers will want to know numbers.
A: About 70W*h/mile.

Q8: What is the steady-state (ie, not charge depleting) mileage of the hybrid?
A: Depends on lots of variables, working to zero in on a common set of repeatable numbers.


I hope that helps!

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A couple of things are very interesting here:
-70 Wh/mile is roughly 1/3 that used by the Tesla or EV1, and is (VERY roughly) consistent with 300mpg. [Gasoline contains ~30 kWh/gal]
One would not normally give credence to a number like that, but let us not forget that this is a VERY light car, and has drag numbers that probably embarrass anything else on the road. It also has (see Q5) about a 40hp motor which wouldn't be enough for a car of normal weight, but is probably adequate (but not fast) in something this light and slippery. Note also the ICE is only about 13hp.

Anywho, I'm pretty excited. Sorry for the multiple long posts.

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A couple of things are very interesting here:
-70 Wh/mile is roughly 1/3 that used by the Tesla or EV1, and is (VERY roughly) consistent with 300mpg. [Gasoline contains ~30 kWh/gal]
One would not normally give credence to a number like that, but let us not forget that this is a VERY light car, and has drag numbers that probably embarrass anything else on the road. It also has (see Q5) about a 40hp motor which wouldn't be enough for a car of normal weight, but is probably adequate (but not fast) in something this light and slippery. Note also the ICE is only about 13hp.

Anywho, I'm pretty excited. Sorry for the multiple long posts.

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GoodCheer,

wow, you really got some good info on this thing. I can't stop checking the photos of the prototype. If you take the time to review them carefully, you can see the level of expertise that went into it. I disagree with doubting Snowdog on the level of his skepticism, but skeptical is good. Snowdog, why do they need to share all this stuff with YOU? are you going to buy one? have you ever started a company or brought a product to market? me neither but I can at least be interested. many aspects of any product are secret and this is only the launch of the prototype. give em time.

GoodCheer, did you order one?

William

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Free country[s]. They don't have to answer my questions, but AFAIK, I never asked them any. But I am free to comment on behaviors I don't like.

IMO claims of secrecy don't hold water when they publicly make claims of 300MPG. Also I don't know why people would give them money when there is ANY secrecy. There are fundamental questions about road legality in all states etc...

Even at 70Wh/mi you are really only looking at slightly over 100mpg (still good but more in line with expectations) because you still have to run an ICE to produce mechanical energy(lucky to hit 25% efficiency), run a generator to produce those watts. Breaking 100MPG (for real) will be a big deal. Breaking 300MPG is an obvious "exaggeration".

No I haven't started a company but I have read a lot about what it takes to get a car to market. This

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Snowdog, freedom rings.
this is NOT a car! again, not a 4 wheeled passenger AUTO. btw, check this:
http://www.cbs8.com/video/ and look for the jetsons style car feature (i know, they call it a car). the thing is r, e, a, l. (say it out loud;))

Every company has secrets. I hope they meet your "exaggeration" as you state.

as for legality, no way this will selll in 50 states... (snow?) but they don't have too! question: what state in the US has the strictest rules for motor vehicles? (*bonus points if you guess correctly the first time)

it is a choice for energy usage, not a CAR replacement.

btw, i don't know what AFAIK means.

William

ps. i hope you didnt give them any money

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Lots of good commentary on high mpg cars, inc. this one, at http://www.fev-now.com/index.php?page=230_mpg_aptera

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William: I am in Canada, so this likely wont show up here (even if they do start large scale production).

I didn't give them any money. It should be clear from previous posts, that there are too many unanswered questions, and too poorly executed presentation of info for me to give them any cash(even if I lived in a suitable climate).

If it is not a replacement for automobiles not many people are going to part with $20k-$30k to buy one.

Real in terms of prototype means little to me. Real in terms of production and full DOT approval would mean a lot more.

Like a lot of other startup projects out there, going 3 wheels gets them classed as a motorcycle and exempt from nasty things like crash testing. There are still regulatory hurdles to cross, to actually produce these for sale.

Internet Acronyms:
http://www.njboxers.com/Most%20common%20Internet%20Acronyms.txt

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Looks like it belongs in Halo 3. Where's the plasma gun?

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SnowDog: You are quite right, I overlooked the generator (in)efficiency.

While 25% would be a very good efficiency for an ICE driving wheels, I believe it would be unremarkable for one dedicated to a battery-buffered generator, ie. one operating at a constant load and operating speed. Of course this number changes the calculation dramatically.

(33kWh/gal) * .25 = 8.25 kWh/gal coming out of the generator, (8250Wh/gal)/(70Wh/mile) = 118 miles/gal.

That does suggest that 300 mpg includes the plug in range, which is very disappointing. It is interesting that their prototype with a small diesel got 230 mpg. I'll take one of those please! Though that was at 55 mph, and I assume it was hard pressed to keep out of it's own way.

William, I have not reserved one, though I have given it quite a bit of thought (I tend to be slow and deliberate about this kind of thing, except when I'm not). I intend to wait at least until their "simple and traditional" website is up, and until they have some more specifics nailed down (dimensions, capacities, ranges etc.).

I would also like to know the overall width of the Aptera. I know they made it high to reduce lift and drag, and I know they made it a tricycle to avoid hundreds of thousands of dollars of red tape, so they had to make it wide to keep it stable. If there is one respect in which it might impinge on everyday life, it COULD be that it is somewhat wider than a normal car. I doubt this will be a problem as that width is well forward of where others' doors might swing, but I'd like to know numbers. I'd like even more to take a test-drive, but that might not be possible.

#3. I believe that is an early prototype drivetrain, as that clip has been up on the site for a good long while.

Re the crappy web-site, don't we all complain that big companies never take any risks? I think the web-site sucks, but I don't begrudge them the desire to stand out from the crowd, and I don't think it necessarily reflects badly on the product they're selling.

As far as concerns for finish quality, I would say from the pictures it looks very good. At the same time I know from personal experience in manufacturing that you can make something really well and have it a bit rough around the edges, and you can make a really pretty turd. I'd rather have the former (though I don't know that we have to choose).

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Note that there is more energy in a gallon of diesel (38KWh) and diesel engines also have higher efficiency at extracting that energy as well. That would get you closer to 200MPG. IMO 300MPG is unattainable in steady state for anything that can carry two people and move at highway speed. Typical motorcycles only get about 40-50mpg. Breaking even 100MPG in real world steady state usage will be a significant milestone that will be difficult enough. I think this design can do it. I wish them luck in the Auto X-prize. After 100mpg you are fighting a tougher battle against diminishing returns. Adding windshield wipers might cost 10mpg in aerodynamic loss for instance.

I am actually interested in vehicles like this. But I have concerns.

That "red tape" avoided by going to three wheels is about safety and emissions. I walk to work and modern car emissions are extremely clean, modern motorcycles suck judging by the stench when the drive by, simply because they are not forced to comply. They may use this as an excuse to run a small engine with no catalytic converter. Read up on the emissions of lawn mower compared to a modern automobile.

Concerns about safety at highway speed and cross winds or turbulence from a high speed 18-wheeler. This is after all a lightweight wing shaped vehicle.

I have the same concerns about width/stability. Three wheel tadpoles need to be wider or have a lower center of gravity than a four wheeler for stability.

I keep my eye on all these alternate transport plans. I am interested in a Venture as it appears more fun to drive. Their claims are more subdued and I give them a better chance of coming to market, but even for them I am not holding my breath.
http://www.flytheroad.com/

Bring them all on. Just have them meet some kind of emissions/safety.

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