Filed under: EV/Plug-in, Hybrid, MPG, GM, AutoblogGreen Exclusive
Answering readers questions on the Volt
Click the Volt for a high-res gallery
The other day Sebastian put up a post wondering what questions you the readers would pose to GM about the Volt and here we have some answers. One reader wrote in explaining that he lives outside of Denver and commutes 66 miles round trip to work alone in a GMC Heavy Duty Diesel truck at highway speeds but would love something like the Volt for a commute vehicle.
Before responding to questions about the Volt itself it is necessary to respond to this situation. Why would anyone commute so far alone in a heavy duty truck, even a diesel and why wait for the Volt. There are plenty of far more efficient and practical vehicles on the market right now. If you need a truck like the Sierra for hauling or towing there's nothing wrong with that but as a commuter, especially going so far solo it's just silly. Go buy a Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris, Chevy Cobalt or Ford Focus. Even a larger car like a Saturn Aura or Ford Fusion would pay for itself in fuel savings pretty quickly.
Now, on to the questions after the jump
Gallery: Chevy Volt Concept
1) The Volt looks like a 4-seater. Will they have an option for a two-seater with greater range (meaning swap the rear seats for more batteries)? How about a convertible to drop weight (and increase range)?
Yes, the Volt is a four-seater but switching to two seats and a larger battery would increase the range at significantly higher cost (the battery will already be by far the most expensive component in the car) and reduced utility. GM wants to sell lots of E-Flex vehicles and as the EV1 and Honda Insight already demonstrated, a two-seater of this type has limited appeal. As for a convertible, that would increase the weight and aerodynamic drag. Taking the top off a unit body car requires extra structure elsewhere. Compare the weight of any coupe and convertible and you will see the open top car is always at least 100-150+ pounds heavier.
2) Will they make this car reasonable in price and stay with their target price or are they going to pull an "SSR", meaning an initial advertised price at $25K, then $32, then finally sell it at $45 (like they did with the SSR)?
Unlike the SSR, the intent of the E-Flex design was always to create an affordable, high-volume electrically driven vehicle architecture. The SSR was never more than a small niche product. GM knows if they can't sell the Volt profitably for a price under about $30K, the whole project will never work.
3) I see some interesting three-wheeled "cars" coming in the same timeframe as the Volt - why would I pay more for the Volt for seats I'd almost never use, especially if the Volt can't go more than 40 miles on a charge?
The three-wheeled EVs like the Zap Xebra are configured that way because they are classed as motorcycles rather than cars. That means they don't have to meet any automotive safety requirements or crash tests. Crashing something like that into even a Smart ForTwo would not be pleasant for the occupants of the three-wheeler. As for the range, the Volt can keep going well past the forty mile mark thanks to the range extender. If each leg is less than forty miles you can plug-in and keep going on battery power.
4) Can they get the electric-only range up to 100 miles, in any temperature (120 to minus 20 F), at 75 mph?
Getting the battery range up to 100 miles would require a significantly larger battery at much higher cost and weight. The battery in the Tesla Roadster should have a range of 200 miles in a two seater and reportedly accounts for over $40,000 of the cost of the vehicle. Sacrifices have to be made. For the foreseeable future, no one will be getting 100+ miles of battery range, four seats and a sub $30,000 price tag and safety. As for temperature that's one of the robustness issues that GM and other car-makers are focusing on right now.
5) I'm a GM Guy - but there's nothing in their line-up I want. Are they going to be true to this concept or bias it (like they normally do) towards the masses (and profit) and water-down the concept?
Any production vehicle will invariably change from the concept design. We won't know for at least a couple more years what the production version will look like, although again GM has indicated it wants to carry over as much of the look of the concept to production as practical. GM is a mass market manufacturer and they need to make a profit to survive just like any other company.
Now on to questions from other readers
Q. Can people pre-order a Volt?
A. There are always dealers who are more than willing to take your money in exchange for a promise to provide an early slot for an as yet non-existent product. That is however no guarantee that you will ever get anything for your money. Put your deposit money in CD or some other savings for a while until we know more.
Q. Are you going to build it before Toyota does it?
A. All indications right now are that Toyota is lagging on LiIon development at the moment, but until anything is announced officially we won't know.
Q. I would like to know if the Volt could be used as an emergency standby generator/power supply for my home in case of an emergency, for power at my jobsite or while camping. I also want to know if Vehicle-to-Grid capability will be built into the electronics as standard equipment.
A. GM and other carmakers are investigating vehicle to grid but nothing has been decided at this point. Generator capability of some kind is likely since it will have an onboard inverter and is already operating at more than 110V internally.
Q. What I would like to know is why they claim no adequate battery technology exists for a touted 40-mile electric range, when there were BEVs getting twice than that 10 years ago (never mind those from 100 years ago), and battery technology has been improving at about 7 percent a year since then.
A. No one has claimed that technology for a forty-mile range doesn't exist. The problem is the robustness and durability of batteries to operate in conditions from -30 to 120 degrees for 100,000 miles without losing too much of that range.
Q. Assuming Toyota adds plug-in capability to the Prius by 2010, what makes the Volt competitive?
A. Toyota has not indicated that they are not planning a series hybrid in that time frame. A parallel hybrid plug-in will probably only have a range of 10 miles at best.
Q. Why is it that GM is touting the Volt in DC and yet opposing Congress' legislation to increase CAFE standards?
A. The problem here is that the mainstream media relies on sound bites. If you read what we have reported here and all of what the carmakers say, they actually are not opposed to 35mpg. They want something done on the demand side to ensure that when they build these vehicles people will actually buy them. If fuel prices fall, most people will jump right back into their gas guzzlers. If something is done to ensure a minimum price for fuel there will be a demand for efficient vehicles and the car makers will have no complaints.
As always we'll be keeping on top of the news from GM and other companies about their next generation of vehicles.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Tim 2:50PM (7/25/2007)
These are all very good questions with reasonable and logical answers. I like the V2G and the Emergency Generator questions best (since they were mine ;) I wish I would have also asked about Flex-Fuel HCCI for the range extender too.
Thanks Sam!!!
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beelzabush 3:08PM (7/25/2007)
As to the guy with the diesel pickup: at least you acknowledged that he might need that type of vehicle. Can he just go out and buy a new econobox? cost in the mid teens? can he afford it? many Americans couldn't. especially while they are saving for their retirement, their health care, and their children's college. Everyone isn't middle class affluent. And besides would it make economic sense to do so? Have you done the math ?probably not. Diesels get surprisingly good fuel economy. A friend of mine has one of those oversize pickups with a diesel engine and gets 19 mpg, along with plenty of hauling and towing capacity.
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Jack 3:08PM (7/25/2007)
I could approve the minimum fuel price if the extra cost of fuel were used to subsidize Volts for the masses, but I'm going to be peeved if it goes straight to the oil companies.
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Ping Wang 3:58PM (7/25/2007)
This is nit-piking, but according to BusinessWeek, the Tesla's battery pack costs about $20,000 to produce, not $40,000+
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_31/b4044419.htm
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werepants 4:28PM (7/25/2007)
That guy with the diesel pickup can easily afford a little econobox - those things can cost upwards of $40,000. That's Lotus and BMW territory.
I found the answers to these questions well thought out and reasonable. It was interesting to see his rebuttal to the CAFE question - I agree that regulation of gas prices should be at least considered. I don't know any politician that has the cajones to do it, but taxing gas and keeping prices high is the only way to stop some Americans from buying up 8000 lb vehicles.
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stevejust 4:54PM (7/25/2007)
Listening to the You Tube video, towards the end, makes me want to strangle GM.
Why can't they look at Toyota and realize the cost of NOT investing in the Volt is too risky?
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stevejust 4:56PM (7/25/2007)
p.s. The pickup driver should consider making his own biodiesel. I would if I had that commute and diesel fuel was that large a part of my expenses each year!
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Phil L. 5:05PM (7/25/2007)
Well - The guy with the diesel pickup certainly didn't buy it for commuting. Some other need, most likely towing, came into play for the original purchase. Something that other vehicles simply can't do.
Presuming diesel guy has enough left over money for another vehicle (and associated insurance, etc.) is a separate issue, and may or may not be true.
However, this topic touches on the tendency of many consumers to purchase a vehicle that can handle the most extreme of their needs - and then use that vehicle for *all* driving.
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AlexNC 5:43PM (7/25/2007)
Very very interesting response to the last question. I never thought about it that way. Hypothetical ... say the car companies push real hard for efficiency and alternate fuels. What happens if the gas/oil companies try to play hard ball with the car makers and reduce gas prices to a very low cost? They could easily tank the car companies just to ensure we all keep using our gas cars. Man, I can't believe I am saying this, but I agree with their stance. We really need to get some laws that keep gas at a minimum price so the gas/oil companies can not low ball their prices and skew the demand for alt fuels/energy sources.
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matt 6:09PM (7/25/2007)
I have my socks standing by ready for consumption should GM actually get their poop in a group enough to make something like this.
Meanwhile, our friends at Honda have a production ready fuel cell car they're just toying around with for fun. Like they did a jet a few years ago. Which is now for sale. And very, very good.
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C Miles 6:49PM (7/25/2007)
#10- get your poop in a group?
Never heard that expression.
I actually wrote on the GM blog's VOLT thread that since Toyota is grabbing all the headlines wit their planned NiMH PHEV, That perhaps GM should take the VOLT to drive around Tokyo for some good PR.
Taking it to Washington does smack of them wanting to manipulate CAFE.
I think the domestic car makers do need help to fix their $1,200/car Heath Care disadvantege for sure, but current the CAFE problem is their own fault.
Toyota and Nissan are each ramping up Bug truck production- How do they plan to meet future CAFE?
In the short term, if GM can use cylinder deactivation on just some of their Caddy/Truck V8's then they can do it all on their V8's (and all V6's as well!).
Adding an additional 6th/ 7th gear will help, and perhaps (heaven forbid!) lowering the horsepower just a bit, or maybe even or reducing some weight. All these things can be done in the short term.
Amory Lovins (of the Rocky Mountain Institute) keeps demonstrating his super light auto Polymer... I wonder why the car makers haven't tried this. I know they had some fit/finish/expansion problems on some composite body Saturns, but that was a while back.
I want to be a big fan of GM, but the needless crushing of the EV-1 (rather than even a donation to students/museums) just proved again GM's intransigence on helping the environment.
If you build it, GM, I will be there- but please excuse some measure of skepticism on my part.
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Lithous 7:22PM (7/25/2007)
"This is nit-piking, but according to BusinessWeek, the Tesla's battery pack costs about $20,000 to produce, not $40,000+"
Ping Wang, that comes to about $3 a battery that they pay then $20,000/6831 batteries (per car) This only means one thing, you should be pissed at Dell and the rest for charging $99 for a spare battery.
"I want to be a big fan of GM, but the needless crushing of the EV-1 (rather than even a donation to students/museums) just proved again GM's intransigence on helping the environment."
C Miles, so those schools and museums should go buy any one of 10+ S-10 factory electrics I've seen on ebay or gov't auction in the last year or two.
One good reason to crush them is that the Japanese have no problem copying anything and everything. GM was way ahead of them (137 HP GM electric vehicle vs 60 HP Japanese electric vehicles IIRC) That is plenty reason to crush them. They could reverse engineer it and get a half billion from the Japanese gov't. I don't blame them for crushing them.
"I know they had some fit/finish/expansion problems on some composite body Saturns, but that was a while back."
A while back? The last Saturns with plastic body panels came off the assembly line this year.
matt,
nice that you think Honda is so great but two things there. First, I believe GM's fuel cell Equinox has the distance traveled recored right now (two of them went like 300 miles - look it up on autoblog). Second, Hondajet sure uses one hell of a lot of American engineers, sales, management etc. The North Carolina headquarters/factory should be a pretty good indication of that.
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Eric 11:08PM (7/25/2007)
I'm the guy with the big GMC diesel truck (18 MPG, 155K miles). The truck was purchased, used, to pull our 5th wheel (7600 lbs empty), so I'm paying off the loan for both the truck AND the RV. I also have a 15000 lb-rated dump trailer I use on our 40 acres. I agree that it is "silly" to drive solo in this thing, but I'm currently reducing my carbon footprint in other ways right now - $2700 for added insulation in the roof of our house and getting ready to add new solar panels for winter heat generation (~$7500) as a fall project so we don't burn so much propane next winter. The truck gets paid off next year - the current plan is to start driving my wife's 99 Grand Prix (at ~26 mpg or so) as the commute vehicle, at least temporarily (it's her turn for a new vehicle). Diesel prices earlier this year got me looking at used diesel Beetles, but it's still cheaper to drive the truck than to start another loan (and add more insurance, etc, at least until diesel gets above $3.30 or so). Seems that, if I'm going to make the change, I might as well try to get the best MPG I can get. I also don't want more car than I need (one huge vehicle is enough), and to have a convertible again would be great. Unfortunately, high MPG and convertibles don't seem to go together well. Thanks for understanding.
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Joseph 11:59PM (7/25/2007)
"Q. Why is it that GM is touting the Volt in DC and yet opposing Congress' legislation to increase CAFE standards?"
GM answers, "(carmakers) actually are not opposed to 35mpg...If something is done to ensure a minimum price for fuel...carmkaers will have no complaints." I think saying that carmakers aren't opposed to higher mpg standards is a bit of a strech. It's obvious that carmkers would rather not have higher mpg standards, but just drag their heels along anyway. Big cars is good business, since the car is more expensive, they can inflate the price a bit, and poof!, more money. You could say that carmakers would liek hybrids since they are more expensive and they can therefore inflate their prices to make more money, but most carmakers cannot have an all hybrid fleet because they'd loose money to other carmakers providing cheaper cars. And carmakers do not like to be bossed around one bit. They spend millions, billions, on developing cars, and they adon't want anyone to tell them how to spend their R&D. And the whole, if the fuel prices were set a minimum to ensure a steady flow of consumers demanding high mpg, please! Carmakers know that isn't gonna happen.
"For the foreseeable future, no one will be getting 100+ miles of battery range, four seats and a sub $30,000 price tag and safety."
Until Tesla Motors comes along. lol
And by the way GM, it's pretty much certain that the Tesla Motors battery pack costs about 25k. Let's do some math. Martin has said that the battery pack is about 1/3 the COST, not price, of the Tesla Roadster. So 25k times 3 is 75k. The car costs 98k. That's a good chunk of profit.
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jimb 2:15AM (7/26/2007)
That GM guy in video has a lot of nerve. He basically is threatening "we won't build the volt" if the tougher CAFE bill gets passed. The other part of his message is that with the tougher bill the "sky will fall" and with the softer bill "everything will a-okay."
I'm not sure that I buy that a slight bump in the requirements and moving the deadline in from 15 years out to 13 years out would change the outcome like that. It would be nice to see that argument bolstered with some facts, but it's much easier to rattle off a few sound bites to try to sway public opinion.
I think the car companies know they're going to have to do something and now it's just damage control.
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AAM 6:32AM (7/26/2007)
In the pics it looks cute but I can't justify spending $30K (you know the options will push the cost up) for that range. 30 large will buy a heck of a loaded MINI. Not to mention what the "upkeep & maintenance" would cost at your local & happy chevy dealership. Have the domestics spanked their dealerships yet, or are they gonna be the final "nail in the coffin" as far as the consumer is concerned?
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kent beuchert 10:10AM (7/26/2007)
I see that there are naiive sorts here who actually believe that whether GM crushed its EV-1 fleet had any significance about anything. The car, in case you don't know, not legal for sale - it was oficially registered with teh Feds as an "experimental vehicle." It cost a small fortune ($43,000) to build, required over $20,000 in batteries every 5 years, had a rnage that deteriorated over the years and was almost impossible to estimate - you really never knew whether you could get toa 40 mile destination and back with a full charge or not. The EV-1 in terms of speed of recharge (6 to 8 hours) and range was no advancement over the Detroit Electric. That vehicle was built in 1907!!! In 90 years, electric cars had not improved in their two most deadly characterisics : speed of rcharge and driving range. "Who Killed the Eelectric Car?" was the biggest piece of fiction ever put on film. Everyone, including Ed Begley, told a pack of lies about electric cars of the 1990's in general, and theEV-1 in particular. Despite the lying claims of the film, few people wanted to lease the EV-1, even though they were heavily subsifdized by the Feds and California. The EV-1, along with the Rav4 electric and the Honda EV
were total flops. Only well heeled treehuggers
could tolerate the expense and the inconvenience of any of those electrics. And I might add that
when the EV-1 was around, nobody was interested in electric propulsion. And to top it all off, an analysis of energy and emissions found the Honda Insight gas hybrid to be overall less polluting than the EV-1.
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Matt 3:05PM (7/26/2007)
Oh, and for Sam, who thinks he should have asked about a flex fuel HCCI generator -
HCCI only works under low engine load. The generator would run under constant load, so HCCI would not work with it.
To head off questions about variable valve timing while I'm here -
VVT would not be needed in the generator for the Volt, since a generator runs at a constant speed. Traditional cams would be the easiest, most cost effective system to use, since they could be optimized for the speed at which the generator will normally run.
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Matt 3:09PM (7/26/2007)
Some people seem not to realize a few things when it comes to the Volt.
It won't go as far as the Tesla Roadster for a few reasons: The Roadster is a SMALL and LIGHT 2 seater. The Volt will be a larger (consequently heavier) four seat coupe (possibly a sedan version as well), and will have a range extending generator on board (more weight). So to sum it up, the Volt will be BIGGER and HEAVIER.
Weight is the enemy of the electric vehicle.
Why only 40 miles on a charge? This is likely a result of the balancing of the size and weight of the vehicle, and the things it needs to run like they want it to (a generator, a gas tank for the generator...). It will also help balance the cost, and thus the price point of the final product. (more people would buy a 40 mile range Volt at $30k or less, than would buy a 100 mile range Volt at $40k+)
ALSO GIVEN the average American commuter travels less than 40 miles per day (round trip), the Volt, as designed, will work GREAT for the MAJORITY of commuters. (you can please some of the people some of the time, but you cannot please everyone all the time!)
For those that commute further, the generator kicks in automatically providing seamless extended range driving. And depending on how much further you have to travel over the 40 mile battery range, your fuel consumption could be DRAMATICALLY less than even the most fuel efficient ICE vehicle.
So to sum it up: The Volt, as designed, will be the BEST COMPROMISE for a very efficient plug-in vehicle, that should be economic to purchase and own.
M@
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Sam Abuelsamid 3:09PM (7/26/2007)
Actually, this would be an ideal application for HCCI. HCCI works best under constant load conditions and would provide a highly efficient generator in this type of vehicle. I discussed this with GM's Larry Burns a couple of months ago and he agreed that this would be a good option. http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/05/15/chevy-volt-could-end-up-with-radically-different-engine/
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