AutoblogGreen

First a minor correction. . . A few journalists have driven the Tesla Roadster, not merely been given a ride in it. Dan Neil is one, and I believe there have been at least a couple of others.

A while back Darryl Siry posted a blog entry on the Tesla website where he invited the press to "ask the tough questions" of both Tesla and other EV companies. Mr. Farrago seems to have taken that as a challenge. However. . . Darryl didn't even come close to suggesting that the press should ask tough questions and then disparage the answers as probable lies.

To Mr. Farrago I would say: If you catch a company lying about their product, then you have a story. If all you have is conjecture that they might be possibly be lying, then you don't have a story.

Reply

↓↑report

If somebody in the press really wants to "ask the tough questions" of Tesla Motors, I'd suggest starting with the transmission. From what I gather, the original transmissions in the engineering prototypes caused a lot of problems and had multiple breakdowns. Tesla decided to replace them with a different transmission. Martin Eberhard called this "the long pole in the tent" with regard to getting the Roadster into production on schedule.

So, my questions would be. . .

Is the new transmission from a different supplier? How does it differ from the old one, and how confident are Tesla that it will solve the problems? How much slip in the delivery schedule can we expect to result from this rather large change? When will there be a validation prototype with the new transmission?

Reply

↓↑report

I agree with you 100% Tony.

Furthurmore, Mr. Farrago will look like a fool if Tesla starts whipping out 1000 Roadsters a year (if people remember what he said).

There have not only been articles about test drives of the Roadster, there is one video that I know of as well. It is listed in the media coverage section of the Tesla site.

Reply

↓↑report

Let me explain something to you, Farrago couldn't in five lifetimes start a successful golf cart building company (unless he just contracted everything to be built in China) much less a car company building real products.

He changes his Website like he changes his pants. Not because he is innovative but because he can't get it right. Most of the people who go on there have no intentions of clicking on the ads (unless by accident trying to click something next to it).

They review the ION about a month before production ends forever. I think they did the something similar with a Ford product as well IIRC (review it just before a total redesign).

He obviously thought he would have 90% support from his "fans" and when he didn't he lifts the "ban" on what he calls "flaming" the site and its authors. Flaming FROM him is something totally different from flaming TO him. E.g. he calls Lutz an idiot yet you can't even write on his site, "do you have the balls to do XYZ?" and it is instantly "flaming". Not just a hard question, no. Flaming and edited and removed. He knew he had to take it or his "fan" base would not be such fans anymore.

Of course he edits his remarks but none of his commenters can edit remarks. So it is always there for people to see. One of his commenters mentioned that he removes his own comments that were out of line but didn't have a record on the page of what was removed like some sites do.

Lastly, I thought the site was basically his and he states something about talking to Frank about not banning comments. http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=3383#comment-42454 and I don't see Frank as having any title of authority on the site as listed: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?page_id=1580

An average of one "article" posted a day (not just from him but from anyone he can possibly get an article from), what a lazy ass. He could never, ever build a car. Not ever.

But that is how all the "successful" critics do it. You know, like on a clear day you can see DeLorean F'ing up the Irish and building an average at best car. But hey, everything he states about business should be taken as the gospel for all the MBAs in training.

The Corolla is delayed for god sakes. The world's most profitable car company delays the most sold vehicle in the world and Tesla starting out and giving people rides has put up with guys like Farrago who can't wait months (no patience, like a little kid) for a vehicle to be available.

He goes from conspiracy that the hybrid in the Chevy Tahoe is a fake and that GM has no intentions to build one just because a look under the hood doesn't look like what a hybrid should in his opinion (even though anyone who knows anything about their hybrid system knows most of it is in the transmission AND the fact that BMW and DCX would have to be in on the hoax since GM claimed that they were co-developing i.e. call them up and ask if they were co-developing and if it actually exists, too lazy?) to now, even though the hybrids haven't been out he is just claiming that they won't do much for GM. Any apology in between? (obviously he believes they exist now to make a statement that they aren't going to do much good for GM).

OK kids, it is blatantly obvious, if you like cars and want to make some money and get well known you must bash the U.S. domestic car companies. Nader, DeLorean, Moore, Neil and others have shown you the way. Farrago is simply just joining in on the fun of it all.

He just hasn't figured it out completely yet. Hopefully for him the "review" angle will work for him (you know, the forefront of his site now). Add an occasional Death Watch and conspiracy and there you go.

If anyone thinks getting an engineering degree and building a car company or just a car is difficult then you are wrong. Writing about cars others build is ten fold more difficult. He was such an innovator that back in the early 90s when people were charging 100K for a couple Web pages he was able to learn how to do it himself and have a site. He just finds ways of doing things that are difficult or prohibitive and just gets it done. He didn't wait until anyone with a couple hundred dollars could have a Website because they were dime a dozen. Yes, this whole paragraph is sarcastic.

In almost any other time in America a guy like Farrago would have been shamed for how he is but he is the perfect modern American: Do as I say and not as I do.

I wonder if Mr. Toyoda and Mr. Honda decided the way to have better cars in the world is to take the Farrago route if we would be any better off today? You know, tell everyone what is good and bad. He is just helping everyone you know. Whatever.

If you love cars so much do what Toyoda, Honda and now Tesla is trying to do. Come later to the game than the established but Build world class cars instead of just a bunch of crap. That is all it is by the end of the day. Words that can be removed if they are not right (as you did with the Tesla post). Simple tweak and problems are fixed forever. Car problems from a manufacturer are not nearly as easy to fix and ignore as you are used to.

Reply

↓↑report

Transcript just in...

Farrago: Frank honey, the guys who usually like us are writing some bad things about me, what should I do?

Frank: I told you to just stick to the acceptable for bashing U.S. domestics but you wouldn't listen.

Farrago: Yeah but... I thought that it was all about my glorious ideas that they loved and not just that I was doing what so many more before me have been doing to gain fame and/or fortune.

Frank: What, have you jumped the shark? Are you crazy?

Farrago: Don't worry, don't worry, I have five Death Watch posts nearly ready to go. I can always call Lutz an idiot again.

Frank: You made your bed on this one, you better let them say what they want to say in the comments section. Besides, all the bashing will be to you on this one subject and it surely won't affect your DW series. I mean come on, you are such a visionary on that one. Who would even begin to think that GM would be possibly be near death at only $300 BILLION dollars in debt? Liberace gay? I didn't see that one coming either.

Farrago: You are right Frank. You are the best. Without you I'd still be trying to use features I developed for other sites.

Frank: Um, you had one decent hit of a feature that is by no means revolutionary but did OK and you did mention on the site that you were going to go in that direction again.

Farrago: Frank, you just know thinigs. How do you do it?

Frank: Because I've owned so many German cars I know all about everything. Damn, I'm funny, I just made out that driving German cars is like that hotel commercial.

Farrago: Thanks Frank. Please don't ever try and leave me like Johnny did. I know you won't be back in four days so I just can't have it happen.

Frank: Don't worry buddy, as long as we get these U.S. domestic haters in a frenzy every couple posts we'll be OK. Just don't try and hug me after this pep talk like you did the last one.

Reply

↓↑report

Lithous:
Well said friend. I wonder that since Farago has been standing chin deep in his own crap for so long, he has brainwashed himself as well as all of his devoted followers into thinking that he actually knows something about cars and car companies. If I was Tesla, I would NEVER give him a test drive, just to spite him. He and his website thrives on Detroit bashing too. Oh, occasionally they will throw a car model a bone like they did the Jeep Wrangler, but typically if it is a Detroit plate, a favorable review is far and few in between. I rarely go to their website, because frankly, it depresses me. The only reason I visited the site this time was that I read that it is currently a very heated discussion going on there, and that Tesla's Siry posted responses to all inquiries directly on the website's thread. Everything you sighted about Farago's "editing" and censoring on his website is 100% true. He can bash others all he wants, but can't take his own medicine. Somebody give me a tums, because he makes me sick.

Reply

↓↑report

Sure as S, my point is made.

What is the first post by Farrago does after the Tesla thing? Why simple, a bashing of the most monetary proportions against a U.S. domestic.

Why of "most monetary proportions"? Well, since the Ford GT isn't being sold anymore and the Tesla isn't here yet doesn't that make the XLR the most pricey U.S. domestic available?

How better for Farrago to get his mojo back than bash the most priciest U.S. domestic?

It could all just be by accident that that was his next post except for one thing. At the start of the post he states, "A commentator named Peakay recently posed a pointed question: 'Do you guys like anything?'" Well, that question DOES NOT ASK IF TLAC LIKES ANY DOMESTICS, oh no, it asks abaut "anything". So, instead of bringing out "anything" from anywhere by any company on the planet (that already hasn't been reviewed by Farrago personally or anyone on the site, now remember anyone can submit 800 words) he brings out a (one of the "acceptable to bash") U.S. domestics to bash!!!!!!!

Let the party begin. Farrago is back!!! Back in the comfort zone. What an obvious choice. It is meant to be a cummuter or just plain toy of the rich. Case in point: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=109714 So pick on the trunk space (because that is what people do with Ferraris) and the interior like always with every GM vehicle. And handling too over bumpy crappy roads. I though the rich would complain too fast to have crappy roads.

Anyway. There you have it. A vehicle that Farrago likes!!!! Um, well to bash. Yes, I think he proved his point. CLEARLY.

Reply

↓↑report

Lithous:
Just an idea: You might want to start an "Imaginary, completely biased, and Un-proven Semblance of the Truth About Cars" website, and critique Farago with a weekly Deathwatch series.

Food for thought.

Reply

↓↑report

Sam,

You write that as if to get rid of me. :(

To be honest I'm just looking for a more fair playing field for the U.S. domestic companies.

At first I thought Tesla was going to attempt to sell cars like Polaroid sells cameras now-a-days (American execs have all manufacturing and design overseas). With the new factory in New Mexico I believe they are actually trying to be a real American car company as they are starting to employ more and more Americans. I stated under another blog topic that I have no problems with them getting gov't subsidies for their project since it is for a factory in the U.S. and they even opened a design center in Michigan. I don't have company allegiance so having a new American car company is great and I will support them (once I realized they were "real" - not as in vaporware real but American job real. I think anyone with a brain could see that a deal with a company as legit as Lotus showed their seriousness to produce vehicles. I was just worried about their seriousness to be a true American car company, something a guy like Farrago and others don't care about). Farrago is just worried that his perceived European superiority of vehicles was to be threatened.

It is fine to be sceptical sometimes but Farrago's timing is just plain bad, often. I wrote my scepticism of Tesla at first when they made a car with very little American employees. My scepticism wasn't that they were all about vapor but that they were going to basically be the ruin of the U.S. auto industry. Hire others to do the real work and have cheap labor under sell (eventually) the current domestics which were tied to the union (assuming everyone knows all electrics are in our future from everyone). I am worried about American manufacturing (as you may see in a moment that someone on the Tesla site is as well). I see the heart of the Tesla roadster being built in Taiwan. That worries me. Americans do need to have independence of manufacturing (to some degree, maybe not every part but the major ones). Tesla is showing me something when they build a factory in New Mexico and a design center in Michigan. Hats off. I just have a few concerns still but since Tesla has shown us things about them I, unlike Farrago, will give them all that chances in the world to succeed and not try to be destructive to their cause. I think Farrago has been following the business long enough to know when a company is sincere and giving it a real try (and that is all that you can ask of a brand new company) and not vaporware. It is all for his personal gain that he wrote that. I mean to mention vaporware when they are dealing with a legit company like Lotus and have working "prototypes" that independent humans have driven in is just ridiculous.

I own a copy of the New American Motorcycle and I would gladly buy a vehicle from the new American car company if it meets certain criteria. American company with American assembly with mostly American parts. Victory did it and Buell did it (except I am not sure of the parts content of those now-a-days) so I would look forward to Tesla succeeding and producing an American product I would buy someday (maybe whitestar).

The things that worry me about Tesla are: 1. Toyota or other foreign company takes over Tesla if the money is right in the near future. 2. Electric motor production in general. From Tesla's Taiwanese made to GM's (IIRC) Siemens made in the Volt. (Wasn't the Hughes EV1 motor made in the states?) The major technology pieces have to be from here for the American companies.


Here is a quote on the Tesla site that I find interesting (source http://www.teslamotors.com/blog1/?p=46):

"But I was pretty down on GM’s recent request to Congress for $500 million to fund battery development. GM is apparently pitching this as a national security issue, and, in a way, I agree.

However, the private sector, including the top-tier Silicon Valley VCs, are already pumping money into companies with promising new battery chemistries. And Tesla Motors (as well as others, I am sure) is already developing good large-format battery systems that are independent of any particular cell chemistry.

The only place I could see a national security argument that is worthy of my tax dollars is actual fabrication – a factory here in the United States that manufactures competitive commodity cells of the latest chemistry.

Battery fabrication is a bit like IC fabrication: the year-by-year improvements in capacity and quality come largely from relentless manufacturing “tweakmanship” (if I might coin a word). Look at Intel, for example. They make some of the finest silicon in the world, and do so right here in Silicon Valley. Any company that outsources its manufacturing to become a “fabless IC company” has stepped off the escalator, and will find it very difficult to get back on. Unfortunately, every single U.S. battery company stepped off the Li-ion escalator. (A123 opaquely says that “A123 operates a combination of wholly owned, state-of-the-art, tier one manufacturing plants and subcontractor facilities in China, Korea, U.S., and Taiwan.”)

Maybe an investment from Uncle Sam could create a U.S. manufacturer so that we can have a little more control of our destiny as more of our transportation moves to electric power."


This last paragraph sums up my thoughts in a nutshell. I just believe that we should have the battery, motor and manufacturing done here so we can control our own destiny. I hope Tesla can step on the American made electric motor "escalator" as they say.

I don't believe that I could start a car company myself either and that is one reason I defend the domestic car companies. I don't compete for best in the world everyday but they do. I realize that and accept it by giving them some support instead of trying to destroy them. Who here thinks the "father belittling the son to make him better" tactic works? That is Farrago's philosophy apparently. If picks every mistake of the domestics they will get better. Yeah, that is such a constructive way and it works so well (sarcasm). Under the current circumstances they are doing about as well as one could expect. Another is their service to this country in the traditional sense (past/present wars) and having the products, the wide range of products to help jump start any need an American could have in business and personal life. Just think of all the construction and hauling that would have been done over the last 50+ years if we waited for when the Japanese or Germans could build a full size truck.

The day Farrago builds a mass production vehicle (yeah right, much less...) and gives journalist a chance to drive a pre-pre-production model is the day I never post to an automobile blog again.

Reply

↓↑report

Lithous:
That transcript was hilarious! We have probably insulted a whole bunch of Farrago fans by our posts but then again, he holds nothing back either in his critcisms of Detroit or otherwise. It was refreshing to see someone else who thinks he's full of himself.
Regards,
Schmeltz

Reply

↓↑report

Well, here we are. September. And the Tesla Roadster is... where? Customer deliveries are now due for October-ish. Oh, and now they're talking about producing one per week from the git-go.

Meanwhile, how many independent tests have we had of the model's range, reliability, safety or performance? Um, none.

Gentlemen, you're absolutely right: I could never start or run an automobile company (never mind a successful one).

A large part of my job: identify bullshit in the automotive industry when I smell it. Perhaps the Tesla Kool-Aid has numbed your olfactory senses. Perhaps not.

Consider these facts: Tesla has missed its production deadline (again) and moved the performance goalposts (200 mile range now as opposed to 250. It's radically reduced its production schedule (one car a week as opposed to 100 or more during the first year). Tesla's management is in flux.

They may yet pull this off. But I see nothing to suggest that they will achieve anything close to their ambitions, and everything to suggest that there will be a great many "disappointed" customers, investors and, in New Mexico, tax payers.

Reply

↓↑report

Hi, Robert :)

I think everyone is aware that Tesla's startup naïveté is resulting in some well-documented mistakes.

At what milestone would you forgive Tesla?
Roadster production started?
More cars delivered than Tucker?
More cars delivered than DeLorean?
Glowing review from Top Gear?
Something else?

Reply

↓↑report

Nine days after Robert's post we find the Tesla Roadster has:
An offical EPA combined rating milage of 245
Less than 4.0 0 to 60 times (3.86 rumored)
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=60

Crash Testing info is trickling in... besides, they will not be able to sell the car without it so what does it matter ? And then there is reliability. What realiability metric does Ferrari, Lambo, and Porche tell you about when you go to buy their cars?

Reply

↓↑report