Filed under: Emerging Technologies, Hydrogen, BMW, GM, Honda
Want to try out a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle? Here's how:
"Hydrogen: Here And Now!" This is theme of the upcoming Hydrogen Expo in San Antonio, Texas, to be held March 19-21. The question is, should it be "Hydrogen: Here And Now? And, if not now, when?" To get a sneak peek at the possible answers to these questions, perhaps you should attend the expo. At the very least, you will have a chance to sit behind the wheel and even drive one of the fuel cell vehicles that will be there, including the BMW Hydrogen 7.
In addition to the cars, there will be examples of hydrogen fueling for your home, your portable electronics and generators. Will any of these technologies become commonplace in the future? Nobody really knows for sure. Judging from comments on our site, there are doubters. However, there are some very smart people working on how to make the "hydrogen economy" a reality. Why not go to the expo and find out yourself?
[Source: Hydrogen Expo via Earthtoys]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Howard Lee Harkness 9:21PM (3/07/2007)
"Will any of these technologies become commonplace in the future?"
No.
"Nobody really knows for sure."
Only if 'nobody' is limited to innumerates who can't handle elementary economics, and don't know any chemistry or physics.
"Judging from comments on our site, there are doubters."
That's putting it mildly. There are at least three alternatives to hydrogen that are vastly superior, much more economical, less polluting, and available RIGHT NOW. Hydrogen will always be the fuel for people with more money than sense -- or for those folks who can freely spend other people's money. Those of use who have to use our own money (and aren't filthy rich) will never use hydrogen to power a car.
Using hydrogen to power a car is insanely stupid.
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KLEI 1:02AM (3/08/2007)
I'm confident that hydrogen will fail. Who is going to pay for a fuel that is $9-$12 a gallon, is less efficent than electricity, provides a car that has 3/4 or less of the performance of a typical car ( the bmw hydrogen 7 goes 0-60 in 9.2 secs and gets 4 miles to the gallon on hydrogen) and can only be refueled at select stations. "doubters"? No. Persons that have done their research on BOTH SIDES of the hydrogen story and come out to a unanimous reslult? Yes.
on another note, the bmw hydrogen 7 is not powered by a fuel cell. It uses hydrogen and/or gassoline in an ICE.
I know I shouldnt be hatin' on this technology, but I just feel that we need to get off the hype from the auto companies ( gm said it would have sold 1 million hydrogen FCVs be 2010 ) and support (and get THE AUTO COMOPANIES to support) what we have confermed from research.
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kert 6:20AM (3/08/2007)
Im betting that hydrogen will be commonplace in about the same time when Moller gets its flying car off the ground and fusion will provide cheap abundant energy for everyone, i.e. about ten years in the future, eternally.
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Schmeltz 9:18AM (3/08/2007)
If there were only one company working on Hydrogen FCV's, I would be skeptical that Hydrogen would ever take off. But when you have the likes of Honda, GM, Ford, BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, and Nissan all working on this, don't you think that maybe, just maybe, there might be something to this? Do you think the engineers at these companies wake up every morning and think to themselves, "My job as an engineer of Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles is such a waste of time! These things will never work and noone will ever want to buy them! People are fools". I sincerely doubt it.
No question Hydrogen infrastructure will be enormously expensive, and take a long time to build. But when it's here, it's here, and you'll have a greener world to boot.
As far as viewing Hydrogen as a fuel for the rich--you are right. In the beginning, the FCV's and the hydrogen that runs them will be mostly for the wealthy. Here's an example you can wrap your brains around: Look at cell phones. The technology has been around for almost 40 years, perhaps longer. At one time there was no cell phone infrastructure. Then a few of the wealthy had them and some cell towers were built in some of the large population centers. Infrastructure grew. Cell phones became smaller, more capable, and less expensive. Now, almost everyone has got one. I see it work a lot the same way for the Hydrogen economy. I'm sure there were skeptics years ago about cell phones as well. Now what can they say about their perspectives 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago? I know many of you will say "Yeah, but a cell phone infrastructure is a lot less costly than a Hydrogen infrastructure. This is an apples and oranges comparison". Yes and No. Again, the Hydrogen world will be expensive, but we can only speculate that it will mature a lot the same way as cell phones have. Does this make sense?
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kert 10:20AM (3/08/2007)
"My job as an engineer of Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles is such a waste of time! These things will never work and noone will ever want to buy them! People are fools". I sincerely doubt it.
No question Hydrogen infrastructure will be enormously expensive,
I, being sort of an engineer myself, know what engineers like to tinker and play with. The expensive futuristic stuff. And if there is one thing that they dont like interfering, its cost constraints and marketing people telling them what people actually need or want.
Working as a research guy for a big organizations has a lot of perks, one of them is getting money for projects that have no chance of bearing fruits, especially when the money is coming from governments.
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Schmeltz 10:51AM (3/08/2007)
Kert:
Thanks for your perspective. I can imagine that the things you pointed out hold true in some cases, especially any field where the federal government is providing the financial backing, but not nearly as much so in the private sector. The big auto makers all have stock holders to report too. The stock holders expect results. The Auto makers have got to see a future in Hydrogen to justify the large amounts of manpower, money, and time they are all investing in this. Again, this isn't just one company taking a shot in the dark and hoping at best to score a niche market here. The Automakers are saying that this is where the industry is headed. Also, with the change in political climate, and the harder than ever pursuit of alternative fuels, the FCV's are gaining more traction then ever, (excuse the pun).
How does one reconcile a reputable company such as Honda for instance, chasing a pipe dream of Hydrogen as many of you are saying? Are you going to say that the people at Honda are just a bunch of dreamers who are bored, and have a lot of money and time on their hands? Some how, I just don't think that that is the case.
As people who want a green world as I think "Autobloggreen" denotes, rather than calling the idea of Hydrogen vehicles "insanely stupid", shouldn't we encourage the people working on it? Lets be part of the solution, rather than part of the problem.
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KLEI 1:31PM (3/08/2007)
well, if fcvs become commonplace, i might just buy one, take out the fuel cell and sell it on ebay, put in some li-ion batteries and have a car that is more efficent and costs me less to maintain and to fuel.
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Xoham 2:51PM (3/08/2007)
No, it is in fact a really bad idea. Battery electric cars are far more efficient. Far more. Here's a report.
http://www.efcf.com/e/reports/E17.pdf
We should squash hydrogen as quickly as possible since it will waste money, and research, and fossil fuels, and precious metals, and time....
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KLEI 3:02PM (3/08/2007)
@ Schmeltz
I dont think that an fuel cell engineer thinks that, but I know for a fact that at least one of the major auto companies (probably GM) is pushing hydrogen as a PR campain. They actualy KNOW that this is never going to happen. So why are they pushing it ? Who knows.
I dont realy have anything against hydrogen from clean, renewable sources, although i do think that it is a little bit wasteful. So why am i agianst fuel cells? That is because virtualy all hydrogen comes from natural gas. Unfortunately, if you are supporting hfcvs and the "hydrogen economy" you are supporting a hydrogen economy fueled by natural gas, which is not renewable or clean in any sense (natural gas steam reformation vents massive amounts of Co2 into the air). Yes, it is true that hydrogen CAN come from renewable energy sources such as wind and solar, but these expensive devices (such as solar cells) combined with the energy consuming electrolysis process, gets you a fuel that is INSANELY expensive and uneconomic. It is unrealistic to assume that hydrogen will eventualy come from clean energy sources.
I have gathered alot of this information from Joseph J. Romm's "The Hype about Hydrogen : fact and fiction in the race to save the climate". I recomend this book to any alternative energy car enthusiest. It is a great read! The author isnt realy against the technology, but he is "a hydrogen realist"
I am going to be part of solution . . . by purchasing a Tesla WhiteStar and supporting this forward thinking ev company.
www.teslamotors.com
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Schmeltz 3:22PM (3/08/2007)
Klei:
Thanks for the advice on the book, I will check that out at some point. I too am looking forward to the White Star that Tesla is proposing to come out with. I hope they are successful with their ventures. I gotta say though that if your main concern is that Hydrogen will come from Natural Gas as opposed to clean energy like wind, well, where is your power going to come to charge your next Tesla? Probably a fossil fuel of some sort, correct? Therefore, in the short term, powering an All-electric vehicle will be no cleaner than gas-reformation to manufacture Hydrogen for an FCV. So it sounds to me like lots more windmills and nuclear power plants will be needed before either the FCV's or EV's will be clean and green.
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Joseph 5:12PM (3/08/2007)
Hydrogen power is converting electrical power to the chemical power in hydrogen, only to turn it back into electrical power. It's redundant.The only plus side is that it refuels quicker than electrcity. However, the cost of a hydrogen infrastructure is probably ALOT less than having a few fast-charging stations every 50 miles or so on the highway for roadtrips.
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KLEI 6:40PM (3/08/2007)
again, to Schmeltz (i am sorry if i came off as a little bit b***hy, i dont mena it that way, i am glad that we are all working toward a sustainable energy future :D ).
Well, considering that electric drive is around 30% more efficen than Fuel cell drive, even if you get your electricity from a dirty powerplant, it is less polluting than an fcv (but only by 30%). However, i happen to live in California, which has one of the cleanest energy grids in the nation. The cool thing is, that i pay a little extra each month to get my electricity from wind farms, so if i use a tesla, I truly have a "zero emission vehicle"
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Chris M 3:48AM (3/09/2007)
Joseph got it backwards. Electric charging stations cost a LOT less to install than a H2 refill station, especially when you add up the storage system, compressors, meters, special high pressure hoses and nozzles, natural gas reformulator or electrolyzer, cryogenic refrigeration (if you use liquid H2) and required safety equipment.
Electric charging can be installed in almost any parking spot that has electricity nearby. H2 fueling stations require a large lot and special permits, and no opposition from neighbors.
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Schmeltz 10:18AM (3/09/2007)
Klei:
I always like engaging, thought provoking conversations on alternative energy subjects, and appreciate other people's insights. I have read on this and other websites some searing comments with nothing but loathe and hatred towards topics such as Hydrogen or whatever. It seems when some people form an opinion on something, there's no changing their minds. I'm not like that and it doesn't seem that you are either. I try to look at the big picture, and hope for a better world than the way I found it. So, with that said, if Hydrogen isn't the conduit to a greener world, then I hope there's something better to take its place. I like to keep an open mind.
Thanks again for the book recommendation. Let us all know how you like your Tesla when you get it! :)
Regards,
Schmeltz
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KLEI 8:13PM (3/09/2007)
I'm sure i will be extatic about it and will not be able to contain my excitement. I can't wait! an electric bmw 5 series sedan!
I just have to wait until the fall of 2009...
I have to agree with you on more wind farms and solar powerplants ect. Did you know that some countries in Europe are over 20% wind? isn't that great? only if we could put our funding into that instead of giving people 100,000 dollar tax breaks to buy hummers... (not that i realy have anything agians hummers, Go ahead and buy them if you want and waste all of your money on gas. However, i am against giving people 100,000 dollar tax breaks to buy them).
I also realy appreciate how open you are to different energy solutions (some PCers on fuel cell forums/blogs are soooo jaded). I find that there is a down and an upside to everything.
sincerely,
Klei
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bcoverss 4:25PM (3/11/2007)
This will accomplish nothing until we have clean/green power generating plants powering the facilities that produce the hydrogen for hydrogen cars or electricity for electric cars. The clean/green we would gain from the hydrogen cars would be more than offset by the increase in CO2 and pollution spewed out by our power plants by almost 1/3 more than our currently ICE gas driven cars. It would increase global warming gases more than what we are already doing. All this does is move the problem from the Auto industry to the Power utilities, that are far worse polluters than the Auto industry. Of course the big Auto names are in favor of hydrogen because it makes them look greener while just passing the problem off to another industry. More than 98% of the power generated in the US is from coal. If you think coal is clean, even it the so called clean coal gasification then do a Google search for fly ash.
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Clint Harris 10:02AM (5/19/2007)
But then again for you doubters, people said in 1965, we would never make it to the moon!!!
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Phil Carson 12:52PM (5/24/2007)
I realized some time ago that Hydrogen isn't a fuel source, it's an energy storage system. So the question isn't "why use a redundant fuel generation/electricity generation system" it should be "how much energy is lost in converting water to hydrogen, storing it for an indefinite period, then using it in a fuel cell, compared with storing energy in a battery for an indefinite time."
Then there's energy transmission. How much energy is lost in shipping hydrogen compared with shipping electricity? What, you say you can't ship electricity? Interesting. So how do you get electricity from clean power plants to users that aren't close to the plant? You don't.
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Jimmy 6:57AM (10/02/2007)
My thing is this, i cannot wait for some type of green energy for our cars so not to pollute the enviornment, i havent ever been a huge buff on this topic, until i went on vacation in Brazil, i see whats going on there, 3rd world country and they are using all bio-fuels, and some petro based fuels, but more than 50 percent of there vehicles run on some type of bio-fuel, now where do they get there cars, us auto makers, and yet we hear how the big 3 havent the techn. to bring this forward for us consumers. I watched who killed the electric car, great movie, its all based on OIL and GAS monies for the Government. Its all about money, if we had smarter people running the government not money hungry loosers we wouldnt have to worry about the great lakes receeding over 3 feet, they call it leaking, and heat index rising, i mean yah we all love the warmer temps. but its not just us, the brazilian rain forest is paying, water falls have dried up. We need to do something, i am willing to pay a bit more if i can breath and my child and your children can breath. So what i am saying is start looking into writing to congressman and government, people have forgotten this is our country, our rights, and our way, we vote and write enough and put people into places where we want them we will succeed. I know i am going to hear from some that think i am stupid and thinking beyond what we can achieve. I think anything is possible, Airplanes to your Air conditioning on your home, Recycling, call your energy companies, switch your homes over to Green Energy, change your light bulbs in your home to flourescents, i mean ther eis a ton of things that need to be done. But again i am willing to pay a bit more for a fuel that gets me further, and is beyond cleaner than petro. Not a brighter cleaner shinier box like hydrogen if its beyond reach for consumers, and outta reach for anyone for that matter. I want to know more about all bio fuels, and hydrogen for a better world for us all, its not just the USA's world, it belongs to us all. And what ever happend to steam engines, we had one back in the day, goto green field village there they sit, trains ran on them too. just my thought, i just think we need to ask more questions is all, why is it that Government that is suppose to protect us, hurting us, and holding us back, look at persons that you know that own chunks of land, i know of 3, that our Government is paying them Triple sometimes Quadruple to instead of planting corn for a bio-fuel that would be cleaner on our enviornment, to not plant corn on that land. why is no one asking about that and do you not think that is shady. Our Government is crazy, and making money off of us and its time we make our own decisions, i write once a week to my government officials to stop taking bribes and monies from the oil companies and the big 3. Do the same is all i am saying, ask for better things, demand them, we put these pawns into place, if its not working fix it. Speak out, and use your voice not just in here write to them. Hydrogen, Bio-Fuels, Steam, Water, Methane. whatever we can use, everything around us makes energy and someone out there has been using it for a very long time, someone doesnt want us to see it or use it..... Ask Why
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Rod Miller 2:50AM (11/16/2007)
Howard - how about a little info on your claims, what are the 3 superior alternatives to hydrogen, that are available now? I agree with the analogy to cell phones. Everything is for the rich at the beginning. I believe that solor production of hydrogen, can be a green and affordable reality. Everything takes time to implement.
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