Filed under: Hydrogen
"The Hydrogen economy is a bad idea - a really, really bad idea"
You wanna make a point about the ever-moving goalposts of the hydrogen economy? You can leave a note in our comments (something we appreciate), or you could start up a personal blog on the topic (that's also cool). If you want a few more people to hear you, why not write a book about it? That's what Darryl McMahon did, and his new book The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy details that even though vehicle manufacturers are steadily moving towards getting hydrogen vehicles on the roads, the delay in building the H2 infrastructure (read this post if for more info on that) is what's going to hold everything up. The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy was published last September and, in an article from this week's Montreal Gazette, McMahon takes California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger to task for the much-hyped hydrogen Hummer unveiled in 2004 (the thing couldn't drive to the unveiling because it has a range of only 80 miles, and there weren't any hydrogen fueling stations along the way).
McMahon falls more on the "use the technology we've got now – hybrids, EVs, etc." side of things. And, what about waiting for decades for the hydrogen economy? "The hydrogen economy is a bad idea - a really, really bad idea," McMahon told the Montreal Gazette.
[Source: Shannon Lee Mannion / Montreal Gazette via Automotive.com and our old friend Joel A.]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Tim 3:52PM (1/13/2007)
Watch this and tell me if we still need H2. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6954321544637851263&q=ev
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Alain 4:11PM (1/13/2007)
Who in mother fing world would ever drive something that ugly. The hydrogen bmw seven series on the other hand is looking better every second.
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CM 8:31PM (1/13/2007)
The BMW "Hydrogen 7" has a 30 gallon liquid H2 tank and a 19.7 gas tank, no trunk, gets 4 mpg on H2, average performance (0-60 in 9.5 sec), noisy. That is really ugly to me.
The Tango may not be pretty, but 0-60 in 4 sec is beautiful!
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Peter 9:05PM (1/13/2007)
The Tango is a bit pugnacious, but not all electric cars look like it does:
http://teslamotors.com/styling/wallpaper.php
http://wrightspeed.com/x1.html
And remember, all of these cars, including the Tango, can do 0-60 in 4 seconds or less. I'd like to see the Ahnolds Hydrogen Hummer pull that off!
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Gok 2:39AM (1/14/2007)
I completely fail to understand this ridiculous electric vs. hydrogen mentality. Essentially all hydrogen-powered cars proposed thus far (with the exception of that silly BMW) ARE electric cars; they just use hydrogen with a fuel cell as an efficient power storage system.
Why is hydrogen possibly a better engery storage medium than batteries?
- Hydrogen tanks don't require slow and/or complex charging systems, you can just refill them
- Hydrogen designs don't have nasty toxic chemicals that need to be disposed of some how (ever seen lithium burn?)
- Hydrogen has the possibility to have a much higher power-to-mass ratio than even the best batteries
So...stop hating on fuel cell designs just because Dubya said something nice about them.
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Nathan 8:02AM (1/14/2007)
Gok, you're right that hydrogen fuel cell cars are essentially electric cars - in my opinion, that's probably their greatest benefit. Electric drivetrains are almost undoubtedly the future, we just need to find a way to efficiently power them for extended trips. In response to your points:
- Owing to hydrogen's very low density, "just" refilling them is a rather complex task requiring quite high pressure tanks, not to mention a non-existent hydrogen infrastructure. The electric infrastructure exists already, though home recharging will always take a few hours due to the limitations of home power outlets. Volt-style on-board power generation or high-power fast-charge stations at service stations are ways around this.
- Ever seen hydrogen burn? ;) Li-ion batteries can be recycled, too, so it's not like you'll be simply throwing the batteries out of your car every five years.
- Power-to-mass, sure. Power-to-volume...different story. As I mentioned earlier, hydrogen's low density poses some problems.
Additionally, since this is a green blog, how do we produce the hydrogen? Methane-based steam reformation generates carbon monoxide or carbon dioxide, and electrolysis simply wastes electricity through significant losses that could otherwise be used to power the car. Neither option is perfect, but from an engineering point of view, battery-powered vehicles are a better use of energy.
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Tim 10:02AM (1/14/2007)
Gok- Electricity is definitely the way to go. The real question is the MOST EFFICIENT way to store and use it both NOW and in the future.
Alec Brooks, a REAL expert on the subject says "… Fuel cell vehicles consume 4x the amount of electricity per mile than BEVs…” http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01/12/listen-to-alec-brooks-presentation-at-the-california-air-resourc/ This report is well worth listening to. Alec actually coined the term "vehicle to grid" (V2G) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_to_grid Plus we are 20-50 years away (if ever) from the brand new H2 infrastructure that will cost BILLIONS!
Anyone with even half a brain and a little education on the subject understands that hydrogen is a red herring scam. http://www.oilcrash.com/articles/h_scam.htm it’s one of the worst green house gasses http://www.ozone-depletion.com/ Even Al “Green” Gore is worried that stored explosive gasses like LNG, H2 etc are terror targets http://www.timrileylaw.com/LNG.htm and H2 has no infrastructure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_power
Big oil is pushing Hydrogen simply because the vast majority of it comes from their Hydrocarbon product Natural Gas which is another Fossil Fuel! Reforming Natural Gas releases Co2 which is the 2nd worse greenhouse gas. It’s far greener and cheaper to just burn the natural gas than waste energy reforming it into H2! Before you champion H2, learn for yourself that "the H2 Economy." is REALLY an "Electric Economy." Don’t be fooled by Big Oils H2 marketing campaign.
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Bob 10:29AM (1/14/2007)
I want green, but I only want it my way.
Apparently as esoteric, elitist and monkishly self depriving as possible.
I suffer more for my green than you do, you simple fool driving your hydrogen car. Welcome to the next round of green whining. If anything shines a bright light on an unfortunate personality trait of the greenie, it's this whole hydrogen versus electric debate.
Take a page from any economics book. If you want to have your green you had better make it mainstream, convenient and, for crying out loud, make it something the average person would want to be seen in. Not some left over hauled from the storage warehouse of Space 1999.
The shift away from fossil fuel in the tank is happening. Why? Not because of some conspiracy about killing the electric car, because of simple economics. It became profitable to explore other options. Make it profitable and the money and brains will follow.
Your average driver is warming to the idea of getting off the gas pump, but nothing will sour that faster than a bunch of folks whining about how it's not green enough. Want to see a backlash to SUVs? Let the radicals continue this incessant whining. Want to see gasoline in the history books? Realize that it isn't going to happen unless the vast majority of the population like the idea. And the vast majority of the population are not into suffering like monks. Go drive your odd looking pumpkin powered whatever, but please don't get in the way of the rest of us. ;)
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CM 3:08AM (1/15/2007)
"as esoteric, elitist and monkishly self depriving as possible" only defines the odd fringe of the clean energy movement, it certainly doesn't define me! Every large group has its embarrassing members - the Republicans have Bush, evangelical Christians have Pat Robertson, Rev. Phelps, and ex-Rev. Ted Haggard - well, Haggard is a triple slam, embarrassing Christians, Conservatives, and Gays alike!
I would love to see affordable nice looking high performance electric cars, they are not yet available but progress towards that goal is being made. What could possibly be "elitist" about wanting a nice clean efficient affordable fast car for everyone?
If anything, it is the hydrogen car camp that is "elitist", fuel cells are hideously expensive, hydrogen storage is expensive, and hydrogen fuel costs much more than existing petroleum fuels - the cheapest way to make hydrogen is from fossil fuels!
Electric "fuel" costs considerably less than any petroleum fuel. Batteries, chargers, and electric motors are incredibly efficient. Electricity is available everywhere, not just in a few exclusive "Hydrogen" enclaves.
Many electric car enthusiasts once had high hopes for hydrogen, but when we discovered all of the problems (high cost, bulk, inefficiency, leaks, safety issues, ozone damage) and found there were better alternatives available, it lost all appeal. We just hate to see all the time and money and effort being wasted on something that is destined to fail.
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re:volt 12:37PM (1/15/2007)
@6: "Power-to-mass, sure". Not so "sure" if you include the H2 storage system.
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mulad 3:20PM (1/15/2007)
Hydrogen isn't a great way to run an ICE. You can do it, but I think you'd be far better off with a liquid biofuel. Because you need such a large volume of hydrogen to get any work done, it's only really feasible if you're using an efficient fuel cell electric drivetrain, reducing the needed volume of fuel in half or a third. But fuel cells cost megabucks. Fortunately, plain old hydrogen is great from a weight perspective, though I don't know how heavy some of these emerging storage technologies work out to be in reality.
A fully electric car is most efficient, at least in theory, but they still cost megabucks if you want to hit the magic 300-mile range that most people want out of a car. And even with lightweight lithium, you literally need tons of batteries to go that far. The Tesla Roadster gets by with only 1000 pounds of batteries to go 250 miles, but it's a featherweight two-seater to begin with. It's not a vehicle to take the family to grandma's house.
The other problem with electrics is that they require electricity. Everyone who lives in an apartment without any usable outdoor outlets, or who visits relatives in such a position, raise your hand. Of course, apartments could provide it as a service with little kiosk thingies, though it's guaranteed to be flaky and overpriced.
In the end, the plug-in hybrid crowd gets it right, enough batteries to cover daily trips, but extra power available on demand for endurance runs. While you could use hydrogen, liquid fuel is the way to go when storing the energy to travel large distances. It'd be nice to someday have a fuel cell that can run on liquid fuel -- I'm a fan of using an on-board hydrogen reformer fed by hydrocarbons like ethanol, but there's also research into using fuel cells directly fed by bigger molecules.
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AZ 4:18PM (1/15/2007)
I really don't know what BMW is thinking with Liquid Hydrogen is a tough sell to access and store at 420 degrees below zero in the car. Hydrogen fuel cells are still a better pursuit but infrastructure is again a problem and developers like Honda and Chevrolet are struggling to prolonge the life of the fuel stack (that store the hydrogen cells) from corroding at around 50,000 miles. Science will overcome but it will take some more time. The critical question is can we keep the faith going? If we developers unleash too much too early and the public is not ready - it can back fire. Fuel cells has this risk. I can't see the point in Liquid Hydrogen.
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CM 9:16PM (1/15/2007)
It is theoretically possible to design fuel cells to run on other fuels, not hydrogen. High temperature solid oxide fuel cells have been operated directly on natural gas, and molten carbonate fuel cells have been operated on carbon - no hydrogen involved at all.
Unfortunately, high temperature fuel cells are not yet usable in vehicles, though VW is doing some research with them.
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mulad 11:13AM (1/16/2007)
Huh. I guess I had no idea that the Hydrogen 7 stores its fuel as liquid. But even liquid hydrogen has very low density. Anyway, just replace "liquid" in my previous post with "liquid hydrocarbons"...
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Lion Kuntz 6:28PM (1/23/2007)
Here's the deal: any time you can buy electricity at steep retail prices (12 cents/kWh here in California) and electrolyze plain water and get $24 worth of BULK RATE WHOLESALE VALUE of Oxygen, you are doing pretty good. That's what you get, 8 kilograms of O2 every time you electrolyze 9 kg of H2O. Ohhh, by the way, you also get a FREE kilogram of Hydrogen too that has the power of a gallon of gasoline.
The O2 can be catalyzed back with an equal amount to the original water to produce H2O2. Don't power your cars with THAT!!! The land speed for 2-wheel vehicle is 365 mph powered with H2O2, hydrogen-peroxide. You'll get nothing but speeding tickets all day long! Use the H2 instead, and skip the tickets.
Both H2 + H2O2 are rocket fuels. You sissypants girlymen are never going into space unless you get over your yellowbelly fear of them. Stop lying to yourself -- the economics are up top $24 back on $6 investment, so money is not the issue, is it? Fear does terrible things to guys, who will lie their heads off to deny that fear is driving them.
Let's get it straight. All the technical problems of the hydrogen economy were solved by 20 years ago, and I can walk you through all the expired patents with their filing dates. Nothing technical is stopping an ECONOMIC MIRACLE from happening. What is more powerful than greed? Fear is. You pussies are quaking in your shoes, wishing some hair would finally sprout on your testosterone-starved chests.
If anybody ever told the truth your white knuckles and ashen pale faces would give you away, not to mention your fainting whenever the word HYDROGEN was spoken.
You'd rather face a cat-5 hurricane from Global Warming than learn to get over you hydro-phobia.
Ohh, and another thing, you need to go change your underpants now, because I used the dreadful H* word.
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Tim 9:02AM (1/24/2007)
Lion Klutz- Fuel cells are 75% LESS efficient http://www.physorg.com/news85074285.html than Battery Electric Vehicle to Grid (V2G). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_to_grid However, I now believe that there is a place for Hydrogen…
Hydrogen injection to enhance combustion in IC engines has been studied for many years. Here’s some information about GM’s EcoTec engine designs. Quote “Small concentrations of gaseous hydrogen present in combustion with other fuels yielded substantial emissions, and fuel consumption decreases, while efficiency (and power, depending on the chosen equivalence ratio) experienced significant increases.” http://www.wlhs.wlwv.k12.or.us/students/marcusb/hydrogenfuelpage.htm This site also has many links to tech such as
• A turbocharger forced induction system
• A primary ethanol fuel system
• An oxygen-enrichment membrane separation unit
• A supplementary hydrogen injection system.
This is some pretty interesting stuff.
BOTTOM LINE: Electrolyzing water on-board a PHEV to produce small amounts of Hydrogen which is injected into the “range extender” IC engine SOLELY for enhancing the combustion of other fuels (biodiesel, ethanol, etc.) to reduce emissions and boost power is actually a very good idea.
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CM 4:04PM (1/25/2007)
Sorry, Lion K, you can't produce hydrogen peroxide, H2O2, by "catalyzing O2 with water". Doesn't work that way. To see how peroxide is really made, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide#Manufacture
If "all the technical problems of the hydrogen economy were solved 20 years ago", then pray tell, why are all the companies saying that they need several more years? I'd say that the economic problems have not been solved, hydrogen is too expensive and bulky for use as a fuel, except for rockets where high cost is no objection. The "hydrogen economy" is an illusion, the real "economic miracle", available now, is electricity.
Relying on silly grade school insults only indicate that Lion has no real argument for hydrogen. It is not "fear" that drives opposition to hydrogen hype, it is the facts and rational logic. Hydrogen is expensive and bulky, storage is a major expense, fuel cells are expensive, and many hydrogen processes are inefficient. Since there are alternatives that are less expensive and more efficient, there is no reason to support hydrogen. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy#Alternatives_to_the_hydrogen_economy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hype_about_Hydrogen
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Lion Kuntz 8:00PM (1/31/2007)
http://www.google.com/patents?q=Hydrogen+Peroxide+Electrolysis&btnG=Search+Patents
Google Results: Patents 644 on Hydrogen Peroxide Electrolysis.
Electrolytic cell for hydrogen peroxide production
US Pat. 6159349 - Filed Nov 3, 1998 - Permelec Electrode Ltd.
It is however desirable to frequently been a problem in seawater electrolysis.
arrange two or more units for hydrogen peroxide production Desirably, ...
PROCESS AND APPARATUS FOR PRODUCING HYDROGEN PEROXIDE
US Pat. 2051951 - Filed May 31, 1934
60 the electrolysis is easily obtained by regulating the rate of flow of the ...
and distillation apparatus as well as the hydrogen peroxide flowing off may ...
ELECTROLYTIC PROCESS FOR MANUFACTURING CHLORINE DIOXIDE, HYDROGEN PEROXIDE, CHLORINE, ALKALI METAL HYDROXIDE AND HYDROGEN
US Pat. 3884777 - Filed Jan 2, 1974
Furthermore, this process does not produce hydrogen peroxide or a ... Also during
electrolysis, hydrogen ions selec-tively diffuse or pass from the cathode ...
Electrolytic cell and process for the production of hydrogen peroxide solution and hypochlorous acid
US Pat. 6773575 - Filed Mar 22, 2002 - Permelec Electrode Ltd.
In the invention, the material of the electrode and the electrolysis conditions
are properly pre-determined so that hydrogen peroxide and a ...
Process for producing an electrode for use in the electrolytic generation of hydrogen peroxide
US Pat. 4142949 - Filed Feb 16, 1977 - Kernforschungsanlage Julich GmbH
It is 25 sage of electric current generates hydrogen peroxide in found that ...
features and advantages and is placed in an electrolysis cell serving as the ...
Process for the production of hydrogen peroxide solution
US Pat. 6761815 - Filed Mar 13, 2002 - Permelec Electrode Ltd.
Referring to the production of hydrogen peroxide by electrolysis, various
electrolytic production processes are described for comparison Journal of Applied ...
Method for the electrolytic production of hydrogen peroxide
US Pat. 4384931 - Filed Sep 4, 1981 - Occidental Research Corporation
Electrolysis of oxygen which diffuses through a gas-diffusion cath-ode forms
peroxide in caustic catholyte while hydrogen ions generated at an anode are ...
Electrolytic cell for hydrogen peroxide production and process for producing hydrogen peroxide
US Pat. 6767447 - Filed Apr 17, 2002 - Premelec Electrode Ltd.
In the electrolysis of water in which oxygen is present, the reduction reaction
of oxygen proceeds preferentially to yield hydrogen peroxide. ...
Process for the electrolytic production of hydrogen peroxide
US Pat. 4455203 - Filed May 13, 1983 - BBC Brown, Boveri & Company, Limited
Hydrogen peroxide also forms in electrolytic cells, inter alia, ... 6 shows a
section through the diagrammatic plan of an electrolysis device for preparing ...
Process and electrolytic cell for producing hydrogen peroxide
US Pat. 6254762 - Filed Sep 27, 1999 - Permelec Electrode Ltd.
... particles 9 is used to conduct electrolysis while maintaining the electrical
connection. High-purity, high-concentration hydrogen peroxide is produced ...
Electrolytic production of hydrogen peroxide using bipolar membranes
US Pat. 5358609 - Filed Jan 27, 1993 - Chemetics International Company Ltd.
... which splits water into hydrogen ions and hy- droxyl ions. Electrolysis of
oxygen which diffuses through a gas-diffusion cathode forms peroxide in cath- ...
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Bryan 10:46PM (9/05/2007)
Lion Kuntz must own Hydrogen stocks...too bad.
It also sounds like he's afraid of simple solutions to simple problems...very sad.
I guess he'd rather refuel his vehicle at a big-business/profit-center, than take 10 seconds to begin refueling at his home...how strange.
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