Filed under: Emerging Technologies, EV/Plug-in, AutoblogGreen Q & A, AutoblogGreen Exclusive
AutoblogGreen Q&A with Firefly Energy co-founder Mil Ovan on new lead-acid battery tech: 3D2
As we mentioned the other day, Firefly Energy is setting out to change the way we think of lead-acid batteries. Mil Ovan, Firefly Energy co-founder, spoke with AutoblogGreen about this new battery technology and what it might mean for PHEVs and EVs. As for why a company that is initially building batteries for earthmoving and lawn care products, Ovan said name Firefly came about because fireflies produce "perfect light" (that is, without generating any heat). This graphite foam core material the company is using in their new battery technology has the heat dissipation characteristics of diamonds, which are far better than aluminum and copper, Ovan said. A cooler battery lasts longer, he said, and when you think of a firefly, you think of great power to weight ratio. If you're pushing less lead down the road, you're consuming less energy, no?
Read the entire Q&A interview after the jump.
ABG; The batteries are called 3D and 3D2 (3 D Squared), is that right?
Ovan: There are two products that I can take you through. One is called 3D and the other is 3D2. But maybe I can give you a little history on the company and how it was founded. It was founded in 2003 as a spin off of Caterpillar and it was really formed out of a basic need that Caterpillar had in terms of better batter performance. You can't imagine a more abusive environment posed to a battery than something that shakes violently, it used in temperature extremes and is used infrequently, like a piece of earthmoving equipment is. We [CAT] turned to the existing supplier base in the lead-acid battery industry and said, "How would you fix these problems we're seeing?" and, not surprisingly, the answers coming back were not satisfactory because there really hasn't been much in terms of innovation in the lead acid chemistry. They've used a certain material component called a lead metal grid in that battery for decades. What we've doing, in contrast, we're taking the innate power of the lead-acid chemistry, an incredibly powerful chemistry, and replacing the chief bottleneck which was the heavy, corrodible fairly non-conductive lead metal grid with a carbon graphite foam which has a tremendous increase in surface area and it doesn't corrode like a two-dimensional lead grid does. That's why we call it 3D.
There are several green stories to this. In the first version [of the battery], we are removing the negative lead metal grids of the battery and replacing it with the graphite foam. We call that 3D. In the second version, we replace not only the negative lead metal grids but also the positive lead metal grids. We call that 3D2 (3 D Squared). From a green standpoint, dropping the amount of lead in a lead acid battery, and replacing it with a graphite foam is a great environmental benefit. It also has benefits in terms of recycling. With a lithium and nickel-metal hydride battery, you actually have to pay a recycler to take that battery and recycle it. In contrast, the recycle rate of lead acid batteries is very noble. Over 90 percent of all lead acid batteries are recovered and recycled and put to new use again. In our battery's example, since we're using less lead to start with, there's less to reclaim at the end and when you recycle a lead acid battery you smelt it at high temperatures and carbon as a whole is added to raise the smelting temperature. Well, the ingredient of our battery is basically carbon so that actually increases the temperature and makes it more efficient to recycle the battery.
Another aspect of green is you see a number of product companies around the world in different categories who operate internal combustion based platform, for example Husqvarna, which is our first customer, which is making a variety of outdoor lawn and garden equipment, so they're making two- and four-stroke engines. A company like that seeing an increased noise and air pollution restrictions and regulation want to complement their offerings with battery-powered solutions, that's where Firefly come in. We're seeing the same phenomenon coming in the trucking industry, where, in 2008 in California, they want to introduce some very strong restrictions on truckers who are at truck stops, where they can only idle their diesel engines five minutes per hour. Well, how is the trucker then going to run his "hotel loads," as they're called, air conditioning, TV and the like? And then, of course, you have the world of automobiles and you'll see a range of various hybrid ranging from micro-hybrids, where you simply pull up to a stoplight and the engine goes off and when you're releasing the brake and ready to go back to the gas pedal the engine is starting again, to mild hybrids to full hybrids to, now, plug-in hybrids. There's going to be a variety of car types, much like you find today with gasoline engines – you have a V4, you have a five cylinder, you have a six-, eight-, ten- and twelve-cylinder – and of course those vary by price and performance, so I think over time, you'll see the same emerge in the car business. Tesla's one example of a "V12" and the associated price that goes along with that. For broader scale adoption, to put a real dent in our oil addiction, requires a much stronger equation in terms of price performance in the battery packs, and that's a key area that we believe we have with the Firefly technology. We're leveraging well-understood lead-acid technology and working with an existing manufacturing base.
ABG: And where will the batteries be made?
Ovan: We're headquartered in Peoria, Illinois – Caterpillar's world headquarters are here – and we will be making these carbon graphite foam plates here in Peoria and we will be announcing in the next few weeks our contract battery manufacturers, who we will ship these plates to and have them incorporate them into an overall battery that will be made with the Firefly name.
ABG: Are there any materials involved in the production of these batteries that are rare and might limit production down the line?
Ovan: No. When Firefly was formed in 2003, the price of nickel [used in nickel metal hydride batteries] was $10,000 a ton, that's now risen to about $27,000 a ton in 2006 and there are some who think that will rise to in the 40s next year. Cobalt, used in lithium-ion batteries, has gone from $40,000 a ton in 2003 to over $70,000 a ton today. Lead itself, the price of that has gone from $500 a ton in 2003 to $1,400 a ton today. There's a view that with volume, lithium prices will come down, but that view fails to understand that these precious metals are being driven by the voracious appetite of the Chinese economy and the use of these same materials for a different purpose, in stainless steel. So the battery industry is not in the driver's seat.
ABG: Is there any talk of licensing the technology down the road?
Ovan: We are working with flagship customers now who have a critical need, then we'll be in a position to show that to the broader battery industry and entertain discussions on licensing for broader volume uses.
ABG: So when will 3D or 3D2 be available to consumers and to manufacturers?
Ovan: Well, it's the latter that we'll offer to first. Our first commercial customer is Husqvarna, so we'll be shipping them batteries by this time next year for incorporation into one of their key 2008 products in the area of outdoor lawn and garden equipment. Our second customer is the U.S. Army, where we'll be developing a battery upsized for temperature and vibration and power and energy purposes, a battery for their use. We'll be kicking off that project early next month [Jan. 2007]. Both of those platforms may have direct applicability for the world of various hybrid vehicles because this battery has an outstanding advantage in several respects. This carbon graphite foam is a very efficient dissipater of heat, and we know from looking at nickel-metal hydride batteries and lithium ion batteries, you have to put a lot of safety and thermal controls on them to keep them within a certain temperature range so they don't get into a thermal runaway condition and with this use of this high-heat dissipative material, this graphite foam, our batteries run much cooler and lighter.
ABG: Is it just taking some of the lead out that makes them lighter?
Ovan: It really depends on the application, where you will see weight reductions. Simply taking our 3D technology for the moment, in cold climates – where are you from?
ABG: I'm in Michigan.
Ovan: Ok, so in Michigan, your car battery is typically oversized by two or three times so that in January when it gets to minus 15 out and your car whirrs before it finally starts, because in lead-acid chemistry the chemical reaction is really slow at those temperatures so you've got to have a bigger battery as a result so you can start it in those cold temperatures.
ABG: I saw in the white paper that Firefly batteries can put out 70 percent of their power at even at negative 18 Celsius?
Ovan: That's right. That's because of the high surface area, number one, and you can put the chemistry not only on top of the graphite foam plate but also in the pores of that plate and the electrolyte is now in much closer proximity to that chemistry so the ability to use the battery in cold temperatures and recharge it quickly all get improved dramatically.
ABG: Do you have any idea, in any of your testing, what kind of power these batteries might provide to an electric vehicle or a plug-in hybrid?
Ovan: I think the answer is a qualified it depends. Here's why I'm saying this. Firefly is a company that is now starting its fourth year in business and my partner Ed Williams and I, not having been from the battery industry before, did a lot of homework in terms of understanding how do businesses conduct themselves in this area and one of the key phrases we learned is kind of a joke. There are liars, damn liars and battery companies. There's a tendency for a battery company to want to pound their chest and make claims that really require you to peel the layer 15-20 layers to really understand. So our policy is not get into the beating the chest claims. What we do in contrast, though, is we bring in interested parties in a non-disclosure agreement, we ask them specifics on the application and we have a long list of things we ask, we then ask what their preferred battery alternatives are, and we come up with tabular comparative of our batteries against those. That's lead to several of these major corporations who have looked the world over for their battery technology to vote with their wallets and become investors and pay for the product development for their unique applications. That's a very long-winded way to say I'm not going to get into specifics.
ABG: I know our readers could get very excited about this technology, especially those who are thinking about doing a home conversion over to electric drive.
Ovan: I'm a passionate car guy, and I'd love nothing more than to be able to offer a battery for the enthusiast. I guess my only caution is to say that our policy to date has been to work with flagship corporations who have a key need, that is, battery performance is essential to their end product. We are on the record as talking to a couple of worldwide car companies. It is my hope, as a "car guy," that one of these discussions will bear fruit and that will ultimately lead to the availability of this battery for the EV enthusiast, but we're still a couple of years away from that.
[Updated to fix minor typing and transcription errors]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Mirko 9:38AM (12/19/2006)
He says
"Tesla's one example of a "V12" and the associated price that goes along with that."
Isn't the Tesla built on a lightweight 4-cylinder sportscar platform?
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Tim 10:16AM (12/19/2006)
"...to put a real dent in our oil addiction requires a much stronger equation in terms of price performance in the battery packs, and that's a key area..." This is the most intelligent thing I have heard in quite some time. Price performance is truly the key, not just in the battery packs but in the whole automobile package. Necessity is truly the mother of invention. When the middle-east melts down in the next year or 2, innovation will accelerate dramatically. Ultimately, those who survive nuclear and biological armed extremists will have many different models to choose from.
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Mil Ovan 10:55AM (12/19/2006)
Hello Mirko. My comment about the Tesla "being a V-12" was meant as an analogy to say that the cost of their "engine" (a lithium battery pack) was very expensive with the benefit being a really quick 0-60 mph time of 4 seconds.
Regards, Mil Ovan
Firefly Energy
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WL Simpson 11:26AM (12/19/2006)
"V12" is price range, not cyl count. Firefly,s attitude & approach is most impressive.
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Mike Z. 11:54AM (12/19/2006)
Great stuff and a excellent low key market approach [You hear that Altarnano?]
Question: your website seems to indicate the technology as being applicable to Hybrid with not real mention of a pure EV. Does that mean that you believe that the technology is not appropreate for the demands that an EV involves?
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Mil Ovan 1:55PM (12/20/2006)
Dear Mike Z.,
The Tesla EV car with its lithium pack will show itself quite well in terms of extended mileage range (they claim over 200 miles). But the question of course is at what cost (others can debate safety—I won’t be drawn into this topic).
So for EVs, it’s a balance of range (and how much of the range is being affected by spending energy on pushing the weight of the pack around!) and battery cost (inclusive of any special safety and charging controls which add to volume, weight, and cost).
Our technology is broadly scaleable across the range of electric-assisted vehicles. Even our first technology, 3D, offers up to 3x better cold temperature capacity than a classic lead acid battery, while offering modest savings in weight. So winter range for an EV will be better. We’re leveraging the cost and proven safety of lead acid chemistry, and since the foam we use dissipates heat so effectively, the amount of added battery pack volume/weight/cost is minimized. The second generation technology called 3D2 will significantly lower weight and volume, which will make for an even greater EV-type battery.
Regards, Mil Ovan (signing off shortly for a much-needed Holiday break!)
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John A Hansen 3:28PM (12/29/2006)
Dear Mil:
Your comments on the tradeoffs of performance vs
cost of the energy source are exactly on point.
This becomes the driving force behind all potential
sources of energy packages for EV ( NEV) in my
opinion. The cost vs performance of fuel cells
and lithium batteries is limited by
this equation.
A common factor that I've used for comparisons is
the cost per KWH/Ton/Mile to try and compare the
actual effectiveness of various energy sources.
What do you see as the manufacturing cost for a
500 AH 3D battery unit, and the CapEx cost of a
production plant?
Best Regards
John A Hansen
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Mil Ovan 2:54PM (1/04/2007)
Dear Mr. Hansen,
Thanks for your comments. Regarding your question about manufacturing and Cap-ex costs, I can't discuss specifics in this forum due to competitive sensitivities. I can say in general however that if one were to build a new lead acid manufacturing plant, the capex costs to build that plant would be about 1/5 to 1/10th the cost in terms of megawatt hours produced per year in comparision to lithium technology. Furthermore, we're pursuing the more efficient approach of working with certain lead acid battery manufacturers who already have the in-place infrastucture; hence the incremental capex costs to manufacture the 3D-based battery will be fairly modest.
Regards, Mil
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CM 2:18AM (1/05/2007)
Interesting how he tap dances around the issue of performance. My best guess is that the power density is excellent, but the energy density is a modest improvement over existing lead acid, and still below NiMH and LiIon. Cost is also not mentioned.
Notice also how he points out the price increase in nickel and cobalt, contrasts that to the lower (but increasing) price of lead, and lumps lithium in with those other precious metals. Note that he does not mention the price of lithium, but implies a high price due to demand - but lithium is much more common than nickel, cobalt, or lead.
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Mil Ovan 10:45AM (1/08/2007)
Dear CM,
Lithium indeed is more common than other materials as you've stated. HOWEVER, what makes Lithium expensive is not the ore. What's important is the energy and steps required to extract the metal you want out of that ore. Lithium (and magnesium etc) can only be purified or extracted from the ore using molten salt baths which are heated up, then the lithium is electro-plated out of that material. These manufacturing process steps are very energy intensive and expensive, in contrast to lead. See the price increase announcement the other day by MFC Lithium at http://www.fmclithium.com/whatsnew/news/Metal%20Price%20Increase%2011.27.06.pdf . More increases to come I'm sure.
Regarding tap dancing, you can read my position in the main article about citing numbers without any reference to the twenty onion layers that must be peeled.
Regards, Mil
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David R 3:20PM (1/15/2007)
Mr. Ovan:
I am one of many, many enthusiasts eagerly following your product's development. I have recently converted a 1995 Hyundai Elantra to Electric and have driven it over 1500 trouble-free miles. I am using standard Lead-Acid Deep Cycle Batteries and hope this pack lasts until your product becomes available to the Hobbyist/Consumer. I am worried, however, that your company might fall into the trap of patents being locked up like the Cobasys Nickel-Metal-Hydride batteries. These batteries proved very usable (with a battery management system), but were locked up world-wide by Cobasys/Chevron. (I think I have that right). These are the same batteries as used in the Electric Toyota Rav4, and give around 100 Miles Per Charge. Please Sir, follow through with the development of your battery technology and make it available to EVers around the world. It will make a HUGE difference to the U.S. dependence on foreign oil.
David R.
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Phill Arnold 1:25PM (1/24/2007)
We have a photovoltaic system that currently uses 24-twelve volt golf cart batteries. Life span is 5 to 7 years. We have been watching the developmenet of this battery with special interest because it would seem to offer a significant improvement (less weight, longer life and better performance)over the lead acid batteries we currently use. Two questions: do those assumptions seem valid? and what is a realistic timeline before the batteries would be available for our application?
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James Anderson Merritt 10:07PM (3/09/2007)
I have also followed the Tesla, and I note that they go into about as much detail as prudent about their ESS battery pack at their website. At very least, they discuss energy and power capacity, expected lifetime in terms of discharge-recharge cycles, weight and size of the pack, and so forth. I don't think I've ever seen them quote the cost of the battery pack, but the best outsider estimtes from the information they do provide play around $20,000. Mr. Ovan says he doesn't want to discuss numbers, but I think it would help to understand what a 50 kWh Firefly Energy 3D or 3D2 battery might cost, how big and heavy it would need to be, and how long it could be expected to last. These would seem to be straightforward and fundamental numbers, especially if one assumes temperate ambient weather conditions and normal driving usage. I'm OK with honestly derived "ballpark" figures, so what do you say, Mr. Ovan? Will you pitch?
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Robert Weekley 1:15AM (1/02/2008)
Hi Mil,
Just as David R. Posted - the EV enthusiast has a great need for this battery technology, probably much more than previously considered, as their budgets to go with Li-Ion, Li-Po, or other exotic Battery Chemistries is often far mor limited that major players (Lotus-Tesla Motors, T-Zero, Etc.), and are often an overlooked (underlooked?) excellent market force, due to the typical realities of simplicty required for a home enthusiast conversion, for which the concept of going from the current standard PbA batteries to yours as a means to improve performance, would allow your company thousands of ready made promoters around the USA and Canada.
I for one would like to seriously consider use of your battery, and am awaiting a direct email reply on this application for my car - shown at www.aircraft-domputational.com/electricfly - a simple 1994 conversion by Highschool Students that is still in service, and currently in need of batteries. I am ready to buy if your company is ready to sell - at a price point below Li-Ion/Li-Po, of course.
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ty 10:07AM (1/26/2008)
I understand the need to have a ready market for the product. Contracts with large corporations can accomplish this. I simply question the wisdom of ONLY delivering to selected clients. I believe Mil Ovan is wrong in thinking that the market for a better battery is too sparse to be profitable. As for the cost of a sales infrastructure, it would be neglible. Just offer the Oasis at their CAT dealerships and let us worry about the rest. Like Robert Weekly said, he's "ready to buy" if Mil Ovan is ready to sell. From EV enthusias, to RV'er , to the guy who just wants his trolling motor to take him to one one fish, We'd like to give the 3D/3D2 a shot. Why the hold-up? Afraid of too much business?-----not likely.
Oh and David R. your exactly right. Toyota simply can not build an electric Rav4. Thanks to the 'lawyers'. Panasonic can not offer the large battery pack required. Which is stupid when you realize that Cobysis gets royalties reguardless of the battery format. Stupid until you put together that cobysis is just an arm of chevron/texaco. Then it makes sense . . . in an evil robber baron-burn the world rather than make less $- sort of way.
After all. You wouldn't want the poor oil company to make less money, would you?
sarcasm intended
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