Filed under: Diesel, Hybrid, Toyota
Toyota says no to diesel electric hybrids
Toyota's plans to mightily increase the number of hybrids it sells each year will not include diesel. Even though Peugeot is pushing diesel-electric hybrids, Toyota announced the other day that the company would not be investing in vehicles with powertrains that combine the two. Toyota Motor Europe chief executive Tadashi Arashima (pictured) said consumers wouldn't pay the higher cost for the technology even though the emission levels would be lower than the Prius, the world's most popular hybrid. Arashima told the BBC that, "Already the diesel [price] premium is quite high, then you'd have to pay a hybrid premium, so we're not seeing that there's a market."
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[Source: Treehugger, tip by Mike]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Aaron 4:07AM (10/06/2006)
This is crap...I'm tired of people taking what Toyota says as devine Truth... They don't make sense worth a damn and nobody realizes it.... For instance...they believe people will pay the outrageous price premium for a plug-in hybrid THEY'RE developing but won't for a diesel hybrid! Come on, think how beneficial diesel hybrids would be for commercial vehicles and semis. They are huge gas guzzlers and high mileage vehicles that cost so much already that the extra price to make their diesels into hybrid diesels would be far beyond worth the expense. Don't give me this "diesel hybrid technology is not viable" crap Toyota!
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caveman_dick 7:39AM (10/06/2006)
I agree Aaron, Diesels are by far the most efficient engines about and if they are run as constant speed generator are even better. There is also the possiblity of using a 2-stroke diesel like in Container Ships and that will increase the efficiancy even more. Just think if you combine all three, into a hybrid diesel, battery, plug-in, this will give amazing mpg rates!!
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Glenn 9:38AM (10/06/2006)
Don't forget, please, that Toyota don't just use "gasoline engines" for their hybrids; most of their hybrids utilize Atkinson cycle engines, which yes, as Otto cycle engines, run on gasoline (or E10).
My 2005 Prius can obtain diesel-like MPG at moderate to medium highway speeds. Gasoline as a fuel is cheaper than diesel, at least in America.
Just this morning, in a 45 zone 4-lane, I was doing 45-48 and saw between 50 and 95 mpg with Atkinson engine running, obviously 99.9 mpg (actually, "infinity") with battery only for a few moments.
I've seen mid 60's MPG's at mid-60's MPH on the highway. (I'm talking US mpg here, not Imperial).
Toyota are NOT stupid, people.
Let's guestimate that a diesel car adds $1500 to the price of a car. The new urea system is going to run about $1800 more on top of that. Hybrid systems are going to be priced at $1900 additonal by Toyota for their next gen cars.
So, how many buyers would go for a $5200 price premium to obtain 120 MPG when the next gen gasoline Prius is said to be be capable of 100 mpg on gasoline, with a price premium of $1900?
Toyota are right. The math does NOT add up. The Euro-pee-ons (or pee-ins? as in urea tank on all diesels to clean them up) are too stuck on diesel.
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Otto Ingineer 11:36AM (10/06/2006)
1. (Aaron) Hino, the heavy truck division of Toyota, *does* manufacture a turbo-diesel-electric hybrid, and their "regular" diesels have an advanced particulate filter as well.
The price difference between gasoline and diesel may not continue over time, and diesel has a greater energy density than gasoline, so even though the *per unit* pricing might be a bit more, the *efficiency* is better.
There might even be activity in the medium-duty (US 'full-size' pickup) segment with diesel hybrids, since that would produce amazing torque (to start/tow) and surprising efficiency, with the long-term durability that diesels offer.
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Jimmy 11:40AM (10/06/2006)
#3 Glenn,
While Atkinson cycle engines are more efficient than Otto cycle, Diesel cycle still is the most efficient way to turn fuel into motion. Low speed ship diesel engines can convert than 50% of the energy in the fuel into motion. Also, biodiesel offers a fantastic renewable fuel for these super efficient engine.
Toyota's decision is particularly annoying because Toyota has diesel engines and hybrid drive trains, yet they chose not to combine the two! Perhaps Honda, BMW or DCX will produce a diesel hybrid.
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Jared 12:48PM (10/06/2006)
Sorry guys, but the economics just don't work. Given the current premium for a gas hybrid, it takes ~5 years for the gas savings to pay back the purchase premium. A diesel hybrid would cost several thousand dollars more, with little increase in mileage. This would result in an even longer period until you reached pay back.
The numbers just don't work.
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Glenn 3:23PM (10/06/2006)
I have to agree with Jimmy in that the numbers "may" work for heavy vehicles - that has to be because diesels are already at use in heavy trucks, and hybrid diesels may make sense particularly in stop & go vehicles such as city delivery trucks and busses, but not necessarily big-rigs. Certainly, not cars.
Taxicabs? Maybe. But then, maybe not. Taxi cab companies are buying USED ex-cop Ford V8 LTD's with honking big V8's instead of investing in special diesel or CNG vehicles, and Checker gave up trying to market higher priced specialty taxicabs fully 24 years ago, now.
Don't forget, Hino is only "partly" owned by Toyota, just as Daihatsu are (and how Kia is only 50% owned by Hyundai).
Partnerships without total ownership and control seem to work well in Asian nations. Are our company managers in the US egomaniacs who "have" to have total control even when it doesn't make sense? Look at the current scenario this afternoon regarding Kerkorian and York VS Wagoner and Lutz, and you tell me...
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D-rew 3:05PM (7/26/2007)
People are not just buying the current Toyota Hybrid based on mileage/cost savings numbers. Here in the Silicon Valley the Prius is the now best selling car - it's a status symbol. Add Diesel and you further the cult appeal to this car to a whole new market - Diesel and more importantly Bio-Diesel enthusiasts. It's cool to be green right now, it will sell.
Case in point - Diesel pickups here cost between $6,895 (Ford Powerstroke) - $8,395 (Chevy/GMC Duramax w/Allison tranny) more than their gasoline counterparts. And yet the Diesel is the most popular option because of the fuel efficiency, torque, and cool factor. I caught the diesel bug with the Powerstroke and can't wait for a diesel/electric hybrid car to replace our gasoline GTI in a few years. Whichever car maker comes out with one first will immediately have new buyers that may not have considered that car brand before. That drives more people to their lots, etc, etc. It's a no brainer.
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